Murph saw the passion finally!!!!

Murph "I also want to point out that nobody has answered the scriptural point that Jesus says whoever is not against me is for me. Now some can claim that Mel is against Christ in his catholicism but friends one thing that I noticed missing from the film is the plan of salvation."

I must have missed on that one point. My apologies. I really don't know how I missed that question. If the Gospel of Jesus Christ of the Bible is different than the gospel presented by someone, they are against Christ.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

"I noticed missing from the film is the plan of salvation."

That's odd....many 'passion' people have said the Gospel was presented.

I was just wondering if it is equal opportunity to answer questions...because I have a lot of questions about Scriptures, put directly to 'movie' people...and they don't answer them.

I am particularly interested in your take on Mel Gibson stating himself of using the divination writings of Emmerich and agreda....publicly stated by him...and that's where he got all the scenes one cannot find in the Scriptures...

and your statment "What ever false intentions Mr. Gibson may have had combined with the false claims of whatever mystic he consulted have been turned to good by the author and finisher of our faith."

and how we are to reconcile this to Scriptures like

James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. 13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Job 14:4 "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."

Mattew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit

So my question is, all things work together for good to those that love God, but good cannot come from evil. Could you please explain your take on these issues.

Thank you.

 

C.S. Murphy wrote:
What ever false intentions Mr. Gibson may have had combined with the false claims of whatever mystic he consulted have been turned to good by the author and finisher of our faith.

MalkyEL:
A weak jesus, cowering at satan's feet in the garden and drawing strength from his mother is not the Author and Finisher of our faith. The Jesus of the Bible is the One I serve.

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me.
13 And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands. And in the midst of the seven lampstands I saw One like the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the feet, and tied around the breast with a golden band.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And His eyes were like a flame of fire.
15 And His feet were like burnished brass having been fired in a furnace. And His voice was like the sound of many waters.
16 And He had seven stars in His right hand, and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword. And His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying to me, Do not fear, I am the First and the Last,
18 and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hell and of death.

Scott J wrote:
Paul used an altar to a Greek idol to open the gospel to those who would listen... I don't think it is soiling myself to use this film.

MalkyEL:
Paul did not use a Greek idol that was passed off as being Jesus. He used their un-named idol to show Who is the Way, the Truth, the Life. Big difference.

 

Sorry, I missed one thought.

This movie has not changed my witness. I have spoken the truth about it from the beginning. That has kept people from not only going to the movie, and being subjected to the false doctrine, another jesus and another gospel, but I have shown why the movie is false and shared the Jesus I know.

The movie has simply not changed that. It is just one more in a long list of warning people of taking part in false doctrine.

Each person I share Christ with is because the Holy Spirit provides the opportunity and words. That has not changed. All those who are asking if anti-movie people are doing anything other than posting against the movie, might it not be fair to also ask that of you pro-movie people?

 

No it isn't. He used an altar to the "Unknown god". It was most definitely a reference to "a god" though not the true God. "The Passion" is not a completely accurate portrayal of the true Christ but it can give us an open door to declare Him.

 

Nor mine. But it has provided opportunities.

The trial, torture, and crucifixion are legitimate portrayals as far as I can tell.

Some of the movie is false but much of it is consistent with scripture.

That's true of all of us praise God... and for many of us, He has used this film to open people to the gospel that were otherwise unconcerned... and that is a change.

I am not altogether "pro" nor "anti". Given the choice, I would have liked the movie to have been completely biblical. Having not been given the choice, I am none the less thankful that God has opened doors through this very imperfect work.

 

Sharpsword wrote:
Over the years there have been a few men of God that really impacted my life for Christ
His compassion and sincerity, and gentleness, but strength, were qualities that were new to me. He always pointed to Christ and the Word of God as holding the answer to all that. . . .
He died in my arms that morning, of a massive heart attack, doing the thing he loved most, teaching God's people to always use the Word of God as their Standard of Truth. affects our lives.


MalkyEL:
Thanx for sharing your story. I think sometimes we view people on here as automons - untouched by cruel responses and hard words. It reminds me that God made us so complex and multileveled - how precious His command to set others above ourselves, to share the Truth of His Word in love.

My heart goes out to you in the loss of your friend. I too, have been touched by those rare people in my life that God has used to change me dramatically because they were real Bereans and not afraid to stand for Truth of God's Word.

Sharpsword:
I was struggling at that time with feeling it was at times pointless to speak about things and always to weigh all to the Word of God. His final words became a pledge I suppose to never stop speaking up again, regardless of who liked or didn't like it.

MalkyEL:
How precious that the last memory of your friend was - a Word straight from God's heart! A precious gift. Sometimes we cannot comprehend the depths of God's purposes. In this case, I would say that His Word to your heart has given you the ability to impact others at a time when the Word of God is held in such low regard. I thank God for your effective witness and use of His Word - you truly are a sharpsword.

Thanks for a good, solid, and documented post. I will use it as an expert tool to share with others. You have presented Truth that lines up with His Word. In this He is glorified.

 

Thank you MalkyEl. That was very kind of you, although not necessary. I do appreciate the encouragement.

 

"The trial, torture, and crucifixion are legitimate portrayals as far as I can tell. "

Now Scott. Tell me it isn't so. Don't tell me you haven't looked at the historical information and the Scriptural analysis of 'all things Passion.' From the fact that Jesus never physically carried the cross, to being abandoned by Mary, according to the Scriptures, to Mary not holding the Body, according to the Scriptures.

Scott, Scott, Scott...tell me it isn't so....

 

Scott J wrote:
No it isn't. He used an altar to the "Unknown god". It was most definitely a reference to "a god" though not the true God. "The Passion" is not a completely accurate portrayal of the true Christ but it can give us an open door to declare Him.

MalkyEL:
The Passion was billed as an "evangelistic tool" and "Scripturally accurate". In other words, the "idol" used on the film to portray Jesus is called Jesus Christ. The inference is that this "idol" is in fact the Jesus of the Bible.

I believe it was S&T that said, God does not have us dig around in the bottom of a garbage can to find His Truth I really like that concept!!!!!

2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

John 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

I am not sure what your proofs for this are but I have already stated that Mary was way overplayed.

The part about Mary et al. taking down the body is definitely made up and in conflict with the gospel.

I am under no delusions that this film is perfect. However, it does reflect Christ's torture and death in a realistic way... and in a way that has caused many unbelievers to be willing to listen.

God has used Billy Graham and Jack Hyles to save people even though both of them preach(ed) a cheapened gospel. People are being genuinely saved in part because of this film. We should use any occasion God gives us.

The young man, Ricky, opened up to me after seeing the film. After I saw it, God blessed me with an opportunity to both witness the plan of salvation to him and to mention a few of the movie's errors.

 

Scott J >Originally posted by sharpSword:
From the fact that Jesus never physically carried the cross,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to being abandoned by Mary, according to the Scriptures, to Mary not holding the Body,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not sure what your proofs for this are but I have already stated that Mary was way overplayed.

The part about Mary et al. taking down the body is definitely made up and in conflict with the gospel."
+++++++++

Thanks for asking Scott.

If you look at the Greek words for bearing His cross, in the the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, versus John....it's a different word.

From Matthew: 27:27-32?

Matthew 27: 27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers...31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
** 32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross. [KJV]

*** 32 .... him <touton> they compelled <aggareuo> to <hina> bear <airo> his <autos> cross <stauros>.

From Strong's Concordance: bear <airo>
142. airw airo, ah'-ee-ro a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).?

In Mark :
Mark 15:16 And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band...20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him. 21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross. [KJV]
**21.... to bear <airo> his <autos> cross <stauros>.

Same as Matthew > bear > airo

In Luke:?
Luke 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. 28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. [KJV]

***26 .... and on <epitithemi> him <autos> they laid <epitithemi> the cross <stauros>, that he might bear <phero> it after <opisthen> Jesus <Iesous>.

From Strong's Concordance: that he might bear <phero>
5342. ferw phero, fer'-o a primary verb -- for which other, and apparently not cognate ones are used in certain tenses only; namely,?

oio oy'-o; and enegko en-eng'-ko?

to "bear" or carry (in a very wide application, literally and figuratively, as follows):--be, bear, bring (forth), carry, come, + let her drive, be driven, endure, go on, lay, lead, move, reach, rushing, uphold.

From Strong's Concordance: it after <opisthen>
3693. opisten opisthen, op'-is-then from opis (regard; from 3700) with enclitic of source; from the rear (as a secure aspect), i.e. at the back (adverb and preposition of place or time):--after, backside, behind.
?

John 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: [KJV]

****17 And he bearing <bastazo> his <autos> cross <stauros> went forth <exerchomai>

From Strong's Concordance: And he bearing <bastazo>

941. bastazw bastazo, bas-tad'-zo > perhaps remotely derived from the base of 939 (through the idea of removal); to lift, literally or figuratively (endure, declare, sustain, receive, etc.):--bear, carry, take up.?

939. basiv basis, bas'-ece from baino (to walk); a pace ("base"), i.e. (by implication) the foot:--foot.

From Strong's Concordance: went forth <exerchomai>

1831. exercomai exerchomai, ex-er'-khom-ahee from 1537 and 2064; to issue (literally or figuratively):--come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad

If we compare the use of 'bastazo' with other verses, the concept can and is applied to the spiritual act of bearing a cross or burden.?In fact it is the word used in a similar verse,

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth <bastazo> not <ou> bear <bastazo> his <autos> cross <stauros>, and come <erchomai> after me , cannot be my disciple. [KJV]

The witness of the first three Gospels does not contradict the spiritual application in John, I don't think. Simon was compelled to carry the physical cross for Jesus, from the time He left the Hall.

 

Scott J >quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to being abandoned by Mary, according to the Scriptures, to Mary not holding the Body,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not sure what your proofs for this are but I have already stated that Mary was way overplayed.

---------------


Everyone abandoned Christ, Scott, including those closest to Him--which also means Mary.

In fact all the Mary closeness scenes in the movie, like the scourging and slopping up the blood,and kissing his bloody feet, Jesus drawing strength from her, Mary allowing Jesus to go through it concept, etc. comes from the demonic writings of Emmerich and Agreda, and Catholic doctrine..

When Jesus turned Mary over to the apostle, while on the cross...that is the last time she is ever referred to as His mother. From then on in Scripture, she is referred to in relation to her other children.

Mtt 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and ***Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children. [***meaning his mother]

Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; [***meaning his mother]
41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.[also v 47--Mary again no longer referred to as His mother]

Luke 23:v 27, 28, 48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.
49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things. [and also v 55]

John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus was abandoned by all---including Mary. According to the Word of God.

Psalm 31:11 I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me.

Psalm 38:10 My heart panteth, my strength faileth me: as for the light of mine eyes, it also is gone from me.
11 My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.

John 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

Jesus taught us that a corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit. It takes time for a tree to bear fruit. The movie is a corrupt tree. A year from now, the "salvations" that are produced from this tree - what kind of fruit will they be?

Jesus also told the story of The Sower. What kind of ground is this movie?

Mark 4:14 The sower sows the Word.
15 And these are those by the wayside, where the Word is sown. And when they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the Word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are those likewise being sown on stony places; who, when they hear the Word, immediately receive it with gladness.
17 But they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Afterward when affliction or persecution arises for the Word's sake, they are immediately offended.
18 And these are those being sown among thorns; such as hear the Word,
19 and the cares of this world, and the deceit of riches, and the lust about other things entering in, choke the Word, and it becomes unfruitful.
20 And these are those sown on good ground, who hear the Word and welcome it , and bear fruit, one thirty, one sixty, and one a hundredfold.

 

John 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that HOUR that disciple took her [Mary] unto his own home.

Sorry, movie supporters - Mary no-longer-mom was not at the cross to kiss His feet, or to take down the body, or pose peita style for the audience. Mel got it wrong, again

 

Sharpsword,

That is a cool word study on bearing the cross .

I have often wondered how Christians got the idea that Jesus ever carried His cross .

Funny, really - must have been a left over concept from Catholicism when the reformers split. They forgot to clean up that little mess

Thanks for the heads up on that one!!! Loving it

 

Wow.....I though that maybe Sharpsword and Malky Elahh had left us. While I have been away they have put up some pretty solid posts with links and all. I guess the thing about Mel using the mystics is settled once and for all. I was just thinking about the concept of this movie being "the greatest evangelization tool of the last 2000 years". Like I stated on another thread, I would have thought that it was when the Bible was printed into English and other languages so that the layman could study for themselves, instead of it being locked up in the RCC vaults.Did God make a mistake, and now has chosen to fix it using this movie? Think of all of the trees that could have been spared, that were used to make the paper to print the billions of Bibles. This must be driving the mother earth gaia types crazy. I am surely relieved that Mel had the idea to "fix" this while raking in over 400 mil as a little side benefit. Now people will be buying Emmercih's, Agerda's, and St Bridgit's writings because this movie has made them more popular than ever. So much for the trees...

 

S&T,

I have fallen . . . and can't get up . . .

funny post but effective

 

Thank you Malky Elahh.Many do not appreciate my humor here....

 

Hey Spirit and Truth.

I have a question for you. I had asked, "So my question is, all things work together for good to those that love God, but good cannot come from evil. Could you please explain your take on these issues."

I should probably have said, all things work together for good to those that love God, but all things working together for good is not promised to those who reject Him, and we know good cannot come from evil, according to the Scriptures.

Any thoughts?
Thanks