music and immorality?

No, I think common sense is pretty good indicator. It's not rocket science.

Moving one's hips is not a qualifier for sensual, in and of itself. But it is more than obvious that certain movements are sensual in nature. I can't imagine you disagree with that.

What if the hearer is not adequately prepared to make such a determination? I think this is perhaps the most misguided thing you have said yet. Do you really think the hearer is best prepared to determine what is relevant? If so, then no one would have ever learned much in school. Most students do not see the relevance of their many of their classees until years later.

Secondly, the Bible plainly declares that the unbelieving mind is darkened, ignorant, hard, and foolish. Do you really want that kind of mind determining what is relevant? I think not. The reason why the unbeliever is in the situation that he is is because he acted on the desires of his heart and the thinking of his own mind. To let them determine what is relevant is to let the inmates run teh asylum. It always turns out bad.

There is a clear difference between what you appear to be describing and what I believe we should be doing. I do not sit down to figure out what my listener will think is relevant to them. I declare from the word of God what should be relevant to them, and try to demonstrate how it is relevant to them. But I do not pretend that the unbelieving mind or spiritually immature mind is able to determine what is best for them.

There is a difference in philosophy that is evident here. The listener cannot be the determiner. This is not a marketplace where we compete against products of equal worth to win the affection of the hearer. The gospel and the truth of Scripture stands alone. We need to declare the lordship of Christ and call people to submit to it.

 

Evidently you were able to determine through your own personal observance that some at Willow Creek were involved in sensual movements that were not God-honoring.

Balance is important

It is the communicator's job to raise the awareness level of the hearer (I am assuming the role of the Holy Spirit here and speaking in practical terms). Obviously sinful hearts and minds cannot always perceive what they need to know and believe. That's why felt needs preaching is good in one sense but it cannot be the only type. Some needs are never felt by the hearer.

At the same time I still argue that even the truths we communicate to address "unfelt" needs must be presented in a way that is perceived as helpful and relevant (or either the listener will not hear and understand it).

This is not a matter of choice...the hearer is the only one who can PERCEIVE what is relevant or not. It does not matter how true something is, if I do not perceive it as true, it is irrelevant to me. Provide for me another option for who determines what is perceived as relevant or not. You are slightly missing my point.

In your own words, you admit that you try to demonstrate how the truth is relevant to them. Why? Because you want them to perceive what you are saying as true and relevant. Who determines this? The one listening. As you said, this is not rocket science.

Different issue altogether.

This listener is the determiner of what is perceived as relevant whether you like it or not.

Different point. I am not arguing this. The truth is the truth regardless. There is no other truth or competing product. But somethng can be absolutely true w/o being perceived that way.

 

Yes, with the use of common sense. The point is that the music brought out distinct responses (which was the point of this thread).

And my point was that in spiritual matters, the listener is ill-equipped to make that determination. We have to use the word of God as an authority to be submitted to, not as a piece of advice about how to make life a little better.

In modern days churches, there seems an all too frequent goal of showing how the Bible and following God will make your life better. The truth is that it may not. It may make your life worse.

But back to the poitn at hand, there is a style of music that is definitely and without questioning associated with immorality and that creates an atmosphere of immorality. Should we use that music in the worship of God? My answer is No.

 

Amen Pastor Larry

Street preacher

 

Larry,

It's obvious we are talking on different wave lengths.

 

I doubt it. We probably just have different approaches to ministry.

 

Very true, never have like that music. Not even sure what it is. never having had the cultural immersion of some folks. I did a survey, and 2nd generation christians were much less likely to have a problem with CCM, becuase they had no negative cultural reference that they were reacting to. After all, its all about conditioned response, no music is inherently immoral (I know you don't agree with that, but we at least agree in the practical sense that Church music should not be indistinguishible from "The World's music"

I remember a well intentioned youth sponser who told a young lady who told him that her boyfriend listed to rock and roll that "well than, he must also have wandering hands"

Well that might be true, they are not necessarily connected. The logic of that argument has always escaped me. Since I knew plenty of "Good Christian Boys" who wouldn't have thought about listening to 2Live Crew (I'm dating myself) but had as he called them "wandering hands" We all have our areas where we choose to sin. They are not all connected.

Its not about what music is "Godly" but about what music Godly people will choose to listen to. There is a fundamental difference in the approaches.

 

Well, to be honest, Timothy, it doesn't matter how things are with the CCM crowd.

You said you live in a conservative Mennonite community, so you and your family are living very sheltered lives right now. If you leave your community, CCM or not, you will be stepping into a vastly different world.

So far I've seen a lot of arguing over traditional versus contempory, with plenty of mud being slung (along with a hefty share of ignorance) by both sides. I am not ashamed to say that I am definatly pro-CCM, and I have no plans to change, whether I be warming a pew or preaching from the pulpit. But that doesn't really make a difference.

Go into any church, no matter the music style. You are going to find Christians who have had divorces, children out of wedlock, sexually active teens and singles (doesn't matter the size of the church...it is still happening), lying, gossip, flirting, broken promises, you name it. Music styles make no difference.

Am I saying that all churches are carnal? No, I am not. But I am saying that CCM, southern gospel, traditional, whatever, does not matter. What does matter is that we live in a fallen world, among fallen people who prefer to live in the flesh. Sin is not an adversary, but a way of life for the vast majority of Christians.

So, get off the high horses, people. Hymns were the comtempory music of fifty years ago, and th ehymns then were the CCM of the fifty years before that. Nothing new under the sun, ya know.

If you don't like it, fine. Don't listen. But let the rest glorify God in the way that they can.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Maybe it says something about the organist.

 

Fifty years ago the Big Band Era was winding up. Can you point to some of the hymns that were sung in the styles of Glen Miller or the Andrews Sisters in church in the 1950's?

What of the styles of Rudy Vallee, Russ Columbo or Bing Crosby? Were hymns being crooned in church in the 30's and 40's? What of the styles of Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr., Frank Sinatra or the rest of the Rat Pack?

I think what anyone will find if he took the time to look into it is that until the moral upheaval of the 60's and 70's, the church by and large shunned using the popular styles of the day.

No high horses here. Just a high stacks of incontrovertible facts.

 

Duke Ellington had a pretty large cache of Gospel songs.

Dick Haymes, a popular big band vocalist had an album of Gospel standards.

Stan Kenton, my favorite big band leader, did several Gospel songs, including "The Lord's Prayer".

Actually, Der Bingle did many Gospel songs over his long career.

In church? No. But Frank Sinatra was singing hymns in the style of Frank Sinatra.

Perry Como had several Gospel albums.

Dinah Washington did Gospel songs.

Andy Williams had several Gospel albums out.

...and the list goes on.

So I don't think you can seriously say that there was no Gospel music done in a contemporary style before the Jesus movement of the 60's-70's.

 

...and this is to say nothing of the fact that Gospel songs and spirituals, such as "Precious Lord Take My Hand" or "Just a Closer Walk With Thee" have been standards in jazz and R&B since the beginning.

 

That's not what I said. I said, and you quoted it, "...until the moral upheaval of the 60's and 70's, the church by and large shunned using the popular styles of the day."

And you agreed, saying:

In church? No.

Non-Christians have been doing the hymns in their own styles for decades. It sold records, salved their consciences and nominal Christians thought it was good, but they were borrowing from the church, not the church borrowing from them.

Darn those stubborn facts!

 

How do you know all of those people were non-Christians?

 

Actually, my response, "In church? No.", was in response to another point you made.

It's disingenuous on your part, albeit par for the course, to take my answer to one point and apply it to another, unrelated point in order to make it look like I said something I didn't say.

First of all, you and I have no way of knowing which of these people were saved and which weren't.

Second, that's beside the point. You asked if there were hymns done in the style of the popular swing/big band music of the day.

I gave you three examples.

You asked if anyone sang hymns in the style of Rudy Vallee, Russ Columbo or Bing Crosby.

I pointed out that Bing Crosby did many Gospel songs and spirituals over his fifty odd year career.

You asked if anyone in the church performed music in the style of Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr., Frank Sinatra or the rest of the Rat Pack in the 30's and 40's.

While I did acknowledge that this music was not normally performed in churches (presumably because most churches didn't have swing bands), I gave you a couple of examples of popular singers of a similar style.

By the way, one of the most obvious was Tennessee Ernie Ford, who was both an outspoken Christian and was known as much, if not more, for his sacred music than his secular.

Again, you forget that hymns and spirituals have always been a part of jazz and R&B and were performed in the church.

Also, I find it odd, although not surprising, that you would believe that only "nominal" Christians would believe it is a good thing when the world recognizes the goodness of God.

Do with it what you will.

Darn them, indeed. We're still waiting for you to offer some.

 

"In the Christian world, is their a correlation between music styles and immorality/rebellion amongst young people?

I live in a conservative Mennonite community. While there is some, immorality amongst the youth is very unusual. There is no dating, no touching, no kissing. We sing out of the hymnal, mostly.

How are things with the CCM crowd?

(Please, this is a serious question, I'm thinking about leaving my community but I'm worried about my children's future. Please be honest, PM if you want)." Quote by Timothy 1769 from start of topic.

Timothy 1769,
I attend a church that has both Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs each sunday.

My home church is also the home church of "Casting Crowns". We have a tremendous youth program. But...the teaching cannot be left up to the Youth Pastor! The kids must see morality and Christ-like living at HOME! Music is a big part of one's life, especially teens. We attend a very large SBC. About 2-3000 members. I would guess in that group odds are there is some moral issues amongst some of the teens. I can only speak for my own house. I have 3 children Ethan 14, Micah 18, and Erica (who is in college)20. I didn't allow my kids listen to whatever they wanted. I screened their music. Micah teaches 2-3 Bible study classes a week...on his own! He's not on the staff at church. These are groups he has formed, with God's direction, some times they are prayer meetings, and sometimes they are actual bible studies. Erica has a very good testimony for Christ. She attends 1 or 2 Bible studies a week on her own! Ethan, well he's still a work in progress! He hasn't displayed alot of rebellion that I have seen in other kids, but he has alot to live up to with his older siblings. I praise God for the work he has done in my family!
Sorry for this long discourse on "My Kids". I just want you to see that CCM can be good, it directs one's attention to God. Let me clarify that statement. Screened CCM, can be used by God to direct one's attention to Himself. It is not all good music! Yes, I also screen the CCM music.
All that said, each parent needs to take a very active role in each of their kids lives to give them direction and teaching! This is something that is sadly lacking in our families these days! Music plays an important part in our kids lives, but Parents need to take a much more important part! Love in Christ, Shane

 

Let's look and see exactly what it was I asked:

So, as is obvious to the most casual observer, the question centered on the acts of the church, and that was in reply to Trotter's fallacious assertion that the hymns we sang 50 years ago were in the popular styles of the day. The question was not whether or not non-Christians were profaning sacred songs 50 years ago. Wicked men have always profaned sacred things.

But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? Psalm 50:16.

For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the LORD’S song in a strange land? Psalm 137:3-4.

Perhaps you should try reading more slowly and more carefully.

 

Aaron, have you ever participated in a thread where you tried to speak to others in a way that honored Christ or have you always been rude, obnoxious and devisive?

I'm serious. In all of the years I've been posting here, I honestly can't remember a time when you spoke to others, particularly those who disagree with you, with any sort of humility or edifying words.

All you ever do is judge unrighteous judgements and put other people down.

I purposely quit responding to you altogether for a very long time. I only decided to respond to you this time in the hopes that you might have grown up or maybe would exhibit some of the fruits of the spirit in your words.

I guess I was wrong.

 

OK, secular people may have borrowed hymns and updated them in their own styles rather than the Church borrowing secular styles and updating hte hymns with them. Yes, that is a difference, but then many things went on in the church in the past; many things that we do not ascribe to, and would recognize as the ignorance of the times.
So the Church holding on to the old style and it changing in the 60's does not prove your assumption that the church was all godly back then when it listened to the old style, and then the "moral upheaval" of the [increasingly liberal] secular world messed it up with modern styles.
This once again makes Church tradition the standard this is judged by, rather than the Bible (which is simply read through the eyes of these traditions).
This still does not change the fact that similar shifts in style occurred when what is now the traditional styles began displacing the older, plainer styles, and people objected that it was sensual, and perhaps tied it in with whatever moral shifts may have been occuring back then. (an they did occur back then. Once again, the 1960's was not the original Fall in the West!)

 

Try to get the context right, Aaron. The hylns of fifty years ago were CCM fifty years before that. Our hymns were CCM fifty years before now. Look at the copyrights of the hymns in your hymnal sometime.

In Christ,
Trotter