Featured My latest attempt at connecting the dots vs. OSAS

It must be kept in mind that there are have been two groups of Baptists - General and Particular, the former believing that it's possible to forfeit salvation and the latter believing in OSAS. The General Baptists were founded before the Particulars, though not long before.

 

Also keep in mind there are reformed baptists, Free Will baptists, Arminian ones etc, quite a broad group!

 

Where does the SBC fit into that? are they split between the two groups within the SBC?

I notice that both the Arminian and Calvinist Baptist I find on the web - tend to all hold to OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I would say that the SBC is mostly 2-point Calvinist, that is, believe in Total Depravity, and Perseverance, or OSAS.

Even the moderate CBF, which are mostly former SBC, still believe in OSAS. Those who do not believe in this are in the small minority today and are mostly found in the Free Will Baptists, and the General Baptists.

 

even those holding to possibility to forfeit salvation would see it basically as Aposesty, complete turning away from the faith, NOT as failing to keep law/Sabbath etc!

 

The "General Baptists" appear to have the high ground on this one -


7. That men may fall away from the grace of GOD, (Hebrews 12:15) and from the truth, which they have received &acknowledged, (Hebrews 10:26) after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the HOLY GHOST, and have tasted of the good word of GOD, &of the powers of the world to come. (Hebrews 6:4, 5). And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein &overcome. (2 Peter 2:20). That a righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish (Ezekiel 18:24, 26). And therefore let no man presume to think that because he hath, or had once grace, therefore he shall always have grace: But let all men have assurance, that if they continue unto the end, they shall be saved: Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/helwysconfession.htm

As Andy Stanley points out - it is breaking the 3rd commandment (do not take God's name in vain) to claim that God told you to ignore one of the Ten Commandments.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Christians are obeying god, by keeping Sunday Holy day unto the Lord!

Hrebrews 10:26 refers to those who refuse to be saved by sacrifice of jesus death, and instead stay in the OT sacrifices that do not save them!

Hebrews 6 NOT referring to saved, but to those prefessing to be saved, but were not!

 

Your opinion, which is incorrect.

 

"Obeying God" as in the Ten Commandments and in that specific case the 4th Commandment?

(Following the line of thinking of the Baptist Confession of Faith in my question above.)

No one is claiming that the problem is that Christ abandons the saved -- the problem is that the saved abandon Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

"Instead" of "All that become saved will stay saved" Jesus teaches in Matt 13 that there are 4 different kinds of ground - 3 of which become saved but only 1 "stays saved".

Instead of Jesus teaching that all that become saved by accepting the Gospel - will always choose to stay saved - Jesus points us to the example of "Forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18.

Instead of God teaching that all that become saved by accepting the Gospel - will always choose to stay saved - God points us to the example of the righteous that turn from their walk with God - (God who alone can produce righteousness in the saints) - and when they turn from God all their righteousness is as nothing in Ezek 18.

Notice that in that chapter is it the real saved that are becoming lost for failure to persevere in that saved walk - and it is the real lost that are becoming saved when they turn from their rebellion.

Ezek 18
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.

20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.

27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?


In the examples above God is not arbitrarily casting any out - rather the individuals themselves are turning away from God. "Fallen from Grace - severed FROM Christ" Gal 5:4


And of course let's not avoid Christ's teaching in Romans 11




Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off


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"Forgiveness revoked" model as Matt 18

Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.




It works on the same model as Romans 11


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Romans 11


18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


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Our Methodist/Wesleyan/Seventh-day Adventist/Arminian General Baptist (and of course - Free Will Baptist) friends will notice that the language above is missing the "legally obligated to take those who do not persevere firm to the end" to heaven language.

Just as we see in Ezek 18 - no change.

The whosoever will factor is there - as well as the warning against being the rock-ground that sprin[SIZE=3]gs up "to LIFE" and [SIZE=3]rec[SIZE=3]e[SIZE=3]ives the Word of [SIZE=3]Life quick[SIZE=3]ly and with [SIZE=3]joy - but then [SIZE=3]later falls aw[SIZE=3]ay - dying - returning to the dead state Matt 1[SIZE=3]3.[/SIZE]
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in Christ,

Bob

 

We are not under the Old Covenant, so stay with New One in the NT, but you will not, for that would undermine your case!

 

No, rather its both wether yoyu see it as being sealed by the HS, which is unbreakable, as jesus said that the Father power keeps ALL saved, or wether you see it as God working in and thry the really saved so that they endure, key point is that the saved are eternally saved!

You and Bob keep speaking about Commandments, and John states that those saved will desire and will keep the commands, so how can they be lost, per your own theology?

 

They would not be either baptist, calvinist, or reformed, so what wisdom would they be having here regarding security? Not wisdom of the Bible. as their views contridict scriptures regarding this issue!

Hebrews NOT referring to really saved, just those professing jesus, who rejected the truth and went back to Judaim...

Shipwreaking our faith is when we become worthless to God as witnsses, NOT lossing salvation
Falling from grace is when you try to get right thru keeping law, as you and Bob keep trying to do!

 

As writer of hebrews out it, "but we are persuaded", as they were real saved, not the professing ones adressed in Chapter 6 prior!

 

It does not appear that OSAS survives certain chapters of the Bible.

Ezek 18.

Matt 18.

Romans 11.

But Romans 11 is a interesting case in point.

Romans 11


18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

 

Ezek 18 refers to one under the Law of isreal, if a person does right according to the Law, shall not die, and that God looks at each person on a seperate basis for keeping the law and getting punished!
that refers to death in this life, physical death for violating the law, NOT referring to spiritual , as NONE were made perfect, saved by keeping the law in OT!

Matt 18 Parable of unforgiving debtor was in a parable, NOT teaching loss of salvation, but to emphase the truth that those saved by grace need to be gracious towards others, to love others just as God forgave and loved us in christ!

Romans 11 contarsts unbelieving, never were saved jews, with those who were faithful and were saved, and we grafted unto that root as they have with God! shows that God keeps a faithful remnant , and that we gentiles who are saved shall stay saved!

So afr, youhave really nothing to support your theology, as its either trying to keep a NT saint under law of isreal, misapplying parables, or else not understanding what God really meant!