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Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Walls, Jan 15, 2004.

  1. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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  2. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Again, the comment I've made, which you haven't answered is we cannot "do things that fall outside of the realm of forgiveness as Christians. Once we're forgiven, we're FORGIVEN! It is because of this forgiveness that we strive to live lives worthy of the calling of Christ."

    Absolutely not. Just because I maintain (and you have been unable to answer) that ALL of our sins forgiven, that doesn't mean I don't think sin to be something easily tossed aside. I've said things on this thread like, forgiveness "is not a license to sin", "We are to be living like Christ, and a preacher worth his salt stands up and encourages his congregation to be salt and light. We need to live our lives as if we are forgiven and have been made children of God.",

    The statement you have been unable to disprove is that: "No sin that we commit can ever make us unforgiven."

    Not a SINGLE mention of forgiveness, especially something saying that what we do after accepting Christ can fall outside the realm of forgiveness.

    We're not discussing repentance - we're discussing forgiveness. Two different things.

    So now you're saying we are always forgiven? Which is it?

    It is because we have been forgiven and we've met God that we struggle not to sin. That sums up Paul's position perfectly.

    Since I have never mentioned my doctrinal belief about repentence, you most assuredly cannot label it a doctrinal error. The question here is forgiveness. Get back on track.

     
  3. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    Scott, I don't know what it's going to get you off this tangent of yours, but I never said one is "unforgiven" after salvation, but a person can have unconfessed sin, which that sin is unforgiven, not the person, that soul that called on Jesus for saving grace.

    What I am saying, and have said all along, we do have saving grace, but we don't have "sinning grace".

    We are not without sin in our lives, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else. That is the sin which must be confessed and repented of after salvation, else Paul would not have had to deal with it so long in Romans ch. 5-9.

    If it will satisfy you, I should use the term: unconfessed, instead of unforgiven, but the two are synominous: unconfessed is yet unforgiven.

    If you disagree, then take it up with the Lord and ask Him to remove I John 1:9 along with Romans 6.

    Romans 6 is to show the saint his position in Christ, one that doesn't have to obey sin, one that has the "power" within him to overcome the taskmaster of sin. Indicating his passion to serve his "new Master", but his misdirected passions can lead him back into bondage to sin.

    Truly we are not in bondage to sin as Christians, His People of the New Testament type, but we can put ourselves under bondage to sin by obeying the lusts of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

    What you seem to be alluding to is a person could be saved one minute and lost again the next. I NEVER said anything like that and it is only your insinuation on the matter that I have. Also I see the concern of yours to be certain others don't believe such error. Though I don't mind discussing it with you, it seems to have become a "hobby-horse" of yours and is become tiresome.

    Others have posted in full agreement as I have observed, I cannot make you agree, nor will I demand it.

    Our position in Christ is relationship, but our fellowship can become less than desired if we as Christians become "laiden" with willful sins and cause our prayer to be unheard.

    David out it quite well, as inspired of course: If I regard iniquity in my heart, He will not hear.

    How is it regard is given to sin in a man's heart? Holy Ghost conviction. Ere, since the Holy Ghost convicts us ONLY of sin, how can that not satisfy your desire to settle the matter of yet unconfessed, not yet forgiven, sin, in the heart of the believer?

    Methinkest thou must have read too many books and NOT the Bible.

    Good day, and God bless.
     
  4. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    How can a person have unforgiven sin yet be forgiven? Care to show this from Scripture?

    You said on the third page that there a Christian can have unforgiven sin. This is not found in the Bible, and that's the issue.

    Again - back to forgiveness. Drop the red herring.

    Show this from Scripture in the context of a believer in Christ.

    I John 1:9 refers to the first time that a person accepts Christ. When we confess our sins for the first time, he cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness. We still sin, but we are not held spiritually culpable for those sins, based upon the forgiveness of Christ. Romans 6 does not refer to forgiveness.

    Red herring.

    Red herring.

    Just because 4 blind men don't think that the boat is sinking doesn't mean that the boat isn't sinking.

    Red herring.

    Red herring.

    Again - show us the passage that says that a Christian can have unforgiven sin, please.

    You're the one holding on to a position that cannot be shown by Scripture.
     
  5. Walls

    Walls New Member

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    HI HCL! [​IMG] You hit the nail right on the head. God's people must live righteously if the expect blessings of God. We are not a God fearing nation anymore because God's people don't fear God enough to obey His words and commandments.

    1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    It doesn't get any plainer than that!
     
  6. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Let's take this to the next level. Chinese Christians are about the most committed believers in the world. They risk their lives to spread the gospel and to meet in church. God's people are evidently living holy lives. However, is the nation of China being blessed because of their faith? I don't think so. Why do you think that is? That is another reason why the initial verse in question doesn't fit today's church, if we think that God's people living righteously equals a "healthy" land.
     
  7. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    Romans 6 Deals specifically with the position of those forgiven. This discussion has to do with the "people" of God, and certainly any passage about the people of God deals with forgiveness, you nut! [​IMG]

    I don't know where you get trash like that, but it definitely isn't from the Bible! :D

    I John, II John, and III John are all written to believers:

    I John 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
    2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us ;)
    3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
    4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
    5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    I stopped there to see if you can understand the passage is dealing with fellowship, that thing which is BROKEN by sin! Uh, sin yet to be confessed because it is yet to be forgiven, Why do you think Jesus told the woman caught in adultry,"Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more"?

    The relationship CAN'T be broken, but fellowship CAN.

    I've got to get a shower and get ready to go to church, may I suggest you do the same?
     
  8. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Here is where I send you to commentators like Matthew Henry et al., and here is where you say, "I don't read any other book but the Bible" or something like that.

    In the context, I John 1:9 is about those who accept Christ for the first time - that is when ALL of our unrighteousness is blotted out. The fact that not everyone in I John is a Christian is found in verse 8, which immediately precedes verse 9. They lie and do not know the Truth. Christians certainly cannot "not know" the Truth, because the Truth has set them free. We also see in verse 10 that the plural "us" can mean those who don't know the Word. It's pretty evident to me, and to a myriad of commentators.

    In fact, the argument has been made, and rightfully so, that we as Christians, we are to confess our sins to each other. If we see that the passage in I John is understood as we confessing upon salvation, there is no other passage concerning confession after one becomes a Christian, except for those verses that say we are to confess our sins to each other. Interesting, huh?
     
  9. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    I don't need to do that, I already have others that do that for me, and I'm not even sure I did the things they confess to each saying I did them.

    I can only confess my sins and that is best done by confessing them to the Lord. But then there are those times when I've sinned against my brothers and that is to be done openly.

    So are you then admitting that the "we" in this passage can mean them and us, the same as II Chronicles 7:14 can mean Israel natural as well as Israel spiritual?

    Make up your mind man, you beginning to look confused.

    I never said that, but you have supposed things like that of me more than once. I read plenty of commentaries along with my Bible, but I can also see where some very well-meaning men have expressed their passions according to what they saw in the passages but are somewhat wrong. I follow context more than any particular commentator.

    Many passages are not specifically clear, but the context and harmony according to the entirity of the Bible usually takes away all doubt to what the passage means.

    Still, if sins are synco-sematically forgiven, then why should they be confessed the first time? Also, why is it we sin after we're saved, but by your reasoning, they need no repentence, no forgiveness, because the sins after salvation we are not held accountable? But why the need to confess them to other believers? I thought they were already forgiven by what you've said.

    How shall we who are dead to sin, continue any longer therein? But I thought we were dead to sin? If we were dead to sin we wouldn't sin, but we know by the passage in Romans 6 were are sometimes made alive to sin, and in need of forsaking that sin to avoid judgement for remaining in that sin.

    That puts us in a dilemma, Scott. By the way you see it, I see it that way too, but then I see it the way God sees it and we need to forsake the sin in our lives or else reap corrupion for that sin which corruption is the judgement of God upon sin, that's the reason our flesh has to die since Genesis 6.

    It's like I said, you're having a problem with differentiating between the sins of the flesh, and the sins of the spirit, and not that's all, we have the eternal soul to consider.

    Being our spirit was dead upon conception, and in need of rebirth, our flesh is born to die, and cannot be saved, and that soul is eternal but in need of redemption. I believe the passage in I John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Since sin is in need of forgiveness, and "Whosoever" is born of God doth not commit sin, what about all these sins that Christians, truly born again Christians commit? As far as the redeemed soul is concerned, he cannot sin, but the flesh does sin because it is at enmity with God, the "born again" spirit can and does sin, and is in need of forgiveness for that sin against God and/ or the brethren, whichever the case. So you are only 33.33333% right.
     
  10. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Let's take this to the next level. Chinese Christians are about the most committed believers in the world. They risk their lives to spread the gospel and to meet in church. God's people are evidently living holy lives. However, is the nation of China being blessed because of their faith? I don't think so. Why do you think that is? That is another reason why the initial verse in question doesn't fit today's church, if we think that God's people living righteously equals a "healthy" land. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen Walls! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Mr. Emerson,
    How do you know China is not being blessed because of the way the believers there obey God?
     
  11. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    I don't understand that.

    The Bible is quite clear that Christians should confess their sins to each other.

    No, and the reason is, again, that CHristians do not need to be forgiven again, which has been my statement from the very beginning.

    Not confused at all.

    Three pages before, it's there in black and white.

    And the context in the verse before and after shows that we doesn't refer to Christians.

    Which is why commentators understand it the way that they do.

    Confession upon acceptance of Christ is necessary for us to be saved. It is that acceptance of that substitutionary atonement that forgives sin.

    They are not held accountable to our salvation. They have been forgiven. Our sins do cause division in the body of Christ, and the Bible is filled with reasons why we should not sin, but because CHristians will not be forgiven is not one of those reasons. You notice, you have still yet to provide one Biblical example of a Christian who confesses his sin.

    Yawn. There is no spiritual judgement for sin for those who are in Christ. Their salvation is completely and utterly secure.

    Another bizarre sentence. You're still focusing on the red herring.

    Red herring.

    Red herring.

    One can only be 100% right or 100% wrong. You have failed to prove your point - only provided a myriad of distractions. You have provided no Biblical proof saying that a Christian can somehow have something in his life which is unforgiven.
     
  12. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Considering that they are being killed daily, that numerous human rights violations have occurred, and that over a billion Chinese people are completely lost in their sins, I'd say it is pretty evident. THe nation that is being "blessed by God" is killing the very people who are His.
     
  13. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    Scott, anyone who doesn't have your obsessive nature should see I never said anything to rate your allegations. But maybe since you used the word "their" instead of our could be indicative of a problem on your behalf, not that I am questioning your salvation, but if I use your tactics, anyone could presume that it is questionable.

    I have NEVER said anything that hints to our salvation that it isn't fully secure, but I have said plenty in regards to our sanctification and that is what you CANNOT come to terms with.

    Any Christian can see the need to be humble in the sight of God and man, to avoid judgement, not eternal damnation, but the resisting due to pride in the life of the Christian, which pride is sin.

    The Bible is clear that all Christians should be humble, praying without ceasing.

    1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
    2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty .(Uh, isn't this "peace" evidence of a healed land? Uh, Isn't humility on our behalf necessary to have the perfect fellowship with God so our prayers will be heard and NOT resisted?)
    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
    7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
    8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

    James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

    Maybe you really should consider the entire context of James 4, oh why not, the whole Book of James?

    Seems anyone with ANY rationality can see that pride causes the Lord to resist them because they fail to be humble.

    Again, Fellowship here is the subject, NOT relationship. James is written to Christians, just like every Epistle in the Canon is.
     
  14. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Scott, anyone who doesn't have your obsessive nature should see I never said anything to rate your allegations. But maybe since you used the word "their" instead of our could be indicative of a problem on your behalf, not that I am questioning your salvation, but if I use your tactics, anyone could presume that it is questionable.

    I have NEVER said anything that hints to our salvation that it isn't fully secure, but I have said plenty in regards to our sanctification and that is what you CANNOT come to terms with.

    Any Christian can see the need to be humble in the sight of God and man, to avoid judgement, not eternal damnation, but the resisting due to pride in the life of the Christian, which pride is sin.

    The Bible is clear that all Christians should be humble, praying without ceasing.

    1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
    2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty .(Uh, isn't this "peace" evidence of a healed land? Uh, Isn't humility on our behalf necessary to have the perfect fellowship with God so our prayers will be heard and NOT resisted?)
    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
    7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
    8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

    James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

    Maybe you really should consider the entire context of James 4, oh why not, the whole Book of James?

    Seems anyone with ANY rationality can see that pride causes the Lord to resist them because they fail to be humble.

    Again, Fellowship here is the subject, NOT relationship. James is written to Christians, just like every Epistle in the Canon is.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I think that your belief that a Christian can have unforgiven sin has been shown over and over in this thread. Despite your continually trying to change the subject and bring in other points that have nothing to do with that fact, you have still been unable to answer that belief of your from the Scriptures.

    As I said four pages ago - the New Testament is very clear on many things. However, this does not make the original verse in question applicable to Christians. We do not need any "extra" forgiveness. Under Christ, "His people" are already forgiven, so there is no way they can be "more forgiven."
     
  15. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Considering that they are being killed daily, that numerous human rights violations have occurred, and that over a billion Chinese people are completely lost in their sins, I'd say it is pretty evident. THe nation that is being "blessed by God" is killing the very people who are His. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you familiar with how many are being saved there daily?
     
  16. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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  17. Headcoveredlady

    Headcoveredlady New Member

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    Actually it fits right in. Healing is not overnight. God is doing a mighty work in China through His children.
     
  18. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    Well Scott, since there is pride that causes God to resist us, and that pride is sin, don't you think it's the principle?

    Whether you do or not, it would be sin to remain in the state of pride and thereby in need of getting it right w/God, uh, getting it confessed to Him, and uh, forgiveness for the lack of fellowship and obedience on your part. But if you wish to hold to your belief system then that is fine, I want hold to yours though, I choose to keep NOTHING between me and My Saviour.

    Now, lets get you to show specifically where no matter what a Christian does, he NEVER has to ask the Lord's forgiveness for sin against Him after salvation?
     
  19. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Again, forgiveness is total upon confession of Christ at salvation. If you believe that you can have unforgiven sin in your life, then it would appear that you do have something between you and your Savior. What if you miss one? Does it remain unforgiven?

    "Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." -- We've been made righteous. Completely.

    Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. -- We've been sanctified. Completely. Once for all.

    1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: - We have been brought to God. Completely.

    1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: - we've been sanctified, which is complete. If we were to sin and have unforgiven sin, we would thus be unsanctified, a process which is not found in the Word.

    Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - We are completely without blame. Utter and complete forgiveness.

    So, there we have it. We are completely sanctified upon the reception of Christ as Lord. Nothing can "unsanctify us." We are made holy in His sight, even though we still sin. Do we ever see divine forgiveness being offered to those who are Christians. A quick search will show you the answer.
     
  20. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    The Holy Ghost doesn't lie, it is He that constrains His own by His love. I don't have to worry about missing "one", it's when I think He's missed one is when I'm in trouble.

    Scott, that is where you err again, on top of that as a calvinist.

    Again the verb is "shall be" and not already are.

    We ARE chosen before the foundations of the world, to be holy and without blame, but our sin causes us to be unholy and under blame.

    God chose to save sinners, then sanctifiy them, then justify them, and one day we will be glorified! But that process hasn't been completed yet, we are "completely" saved as far as eternity is concerned, but as the old saying goes,"We haven't arrived". I'm already there in Jesus, just waiting on my body to be, hey sounds like a good title to a song, Hmmm?

    Christ is "quickened" we are being "quickened" by His Spirit, still a process of time from babes to perfection/maturity/ sanctification. He brought us to God so the process of sanctification could begin, we were not yet made perfect, learn to differentiate, again.

    Again, sanctification is a process of time requiring our obedience to His prompting to live holy, unblamable, in all honesty. The "offering" is once and for all/ complete, not our sanctification is a one time occurance, it takes time to mature in Christ, which is our sanctification, sir.

    Uh, you'd better study that verb "shall be" a little bit, it has a continual emphasis on the intial act of Christ, not a finality at point of origin or it would read "many are made". Use proper grammar.


    From babes to perfection, sincere milk to partakers of meat: a process. You really should have caught on by now, especially quoting from the first Epistle to the most carnal church in the New Testament, riddled with immaturity and sin within it's memebrs, needing to repent, and doing so that evidenced by II Corinthians 7.

    Now why do YOU suppose Paul said he wrote to them and they felt sorry? Then why is it he said they had "cleared themselves"? Reckon the sin going on in the church against each other AND against God?

    If they didn't need forgiveness for that sin, then why did Paul say that godly sorrow "worketh" repentence unto salvation, not to be repented of? Reckon it has to do with a continual repentence for revealed sin in our lives , that continual working of the Holy Spirit? Uh, the PROCESS of sanctification? Why sure!

    Sorry to get the verse out of order from the way you posted them, I guess I'm just not "perfect", yet! (Uh, neither are you)

    Anymore verses you like to try and apply your misconception to?
     
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