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My thoughts on salvation

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by mets65, Jan 22, 2011.

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  1. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    If it were up to us to choose it, with our evil hearts that never desire God, we'd never be saved. He's certainly not there waiting, wringing His hands hoping that we'll choose Him. No - when we read the Scriptures, we see clearly the truth. God chose those He chose because of His sovereign will. That is all. We don't need to question it. It's quite arrogant on man's part to say "NOT FAIR" or "God's mean if He didn't save everyone" or whatever. I know God. God is good. God is fair. But most of all, God is holy. That's all I need to know.
     
    #21 annsni, Jan 23, 2011
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    What would be the scripture you have to show that He elected all?
     
    #22 annsni, Jan 23, 2011
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Good post Ann. Unfortunately it wont sink in. Only to those who put sovereignty before self will hear and obey. So be it. God will sort it out.
     
    #23 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 23, 2011
  4. mets65

    mets65 New Member

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    John 3:16 and I don't need to clarify the verse to prove my point. The scripture stands alone as Jesus said it. Certainly none of us with our evil hearts should even attempt to interpret it further.
     
    #24 mets65, Jan 23, 2011
  5. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Well, John 3:16 says that God loves - but it does not say that God elected. You do realize that love and election are two different things, right?

    Romans 11:7-8 shows us VERY clearly that not everyone is elect.

    What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

    "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes that would not see
    and ears that would not hear,
    down to this very day."
     
    #25 annsni, Jan 23, 2011
  6. mets65

    mets65 New Member

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    I understand it says he loves everyone but it also says "Whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life"

    Whosoever is of course the formal word for whoever.

    Whoever is defined as: whatever person, no matter who
     
    #26 mets65, Jan 23, 2011
  7. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Not in the Calvinist dictionary. Whosoever refers to the "elect" only. Not really whosoever. :confused:

    If you figure it out let me know. :laugh:
     
    #27 Amy.G, Jan 23, 2011
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Does it? What other Bible evidence do you have for that definition?
     
    #28 annsni, Jan 23, 2011
  9. mets65

    mets65 New Member

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    I believe no further interpreting is needed. I think if we debate we should let the verses stand on their own as the Bible states them. That way any personal vendetta is out of the way.
     
    #29 mets65, Jan 23, 2011
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    So, if all are elect, all are saved. That is universalism. I'm sorry but that's heresy.

    Yes, the verses should stand on their own - in the light of the whole of Scripture. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. You can't take one verse out of all of it and say "This is what the Bible says and you can't argue with it." Instead, we need to look at the WHOLE of Scripture. That's Biblical Interpretation 101. :wavey:
     
    #30 annsni, Jan 23, 2011
  11. mets65

    mets65 New Member

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    You put words in my mouth. Not everyone is saved because not everyone believes.
     
    #31 mets65, Jan 23, 2011
  12. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    So there are elect that will go to hell?
     
    #32 annsni, Jan 23, 2011
  13. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Election is not salvation

    Election is unto salvation. Said another way, one is chosen for salvation.

    Paul said it:
    The elect are those God has given to the Son.

    Jesus said all whom God had given him will come to him. John 6:37

    As many as God as given him, Jesus will give them eternal life. John 17:2
     
    #33 Tom Butler, Jan 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2011
  14. mets65

    mets65 New Member

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    No believers will go to hell, only non-believers.

    God is all knowing, so if you want to call those that accept him, elect, I can handle that. BUT I still believe that it is OUR choice rather we accept Christ or not. He gives us that choice, I just can't believe that He doesn't give us that choice. It's His wish that NONE should perish but that all should have everlasting life. Sadly not everyone decides to make that decision. We can't comprehend the fact that God of course knows who will make that choice, but it still has to play out. Our minds just can't work that way.





    1 John 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.


    1 John 4:16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.



    In this verse it plainly states that WE come to know and come to believe the love which God has for us, and because we abide in love, God abides in us. It's conditional, he abides in us because WE believe.
     
    #34 mets65, Jan 23, 2011
  15. mets65

    mets65 New Member

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    9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

    10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

    12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

    13for WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

    14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without

    If you read those verses you really have to twist the words or the meaning of the words to make it not say that salvation is offered to ALL.
     
    #35 mets65, Jan 23, 2011
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    All deserve death Met. Could it be that when you were supplied with saving grace & you did not recognize it but at that point you cried for God. "I am yours Lord" and you are, for what ever reason....dont ask me to explain God. But God is both just & mercifully & its really the mercy that we thank him for, draw us in. We are now new people, the old man is gone.
     
    #36 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 23, 2011
  17. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Who do you think are the "elect"? You said that everyone is elect but then you said no believers will go to hell. I had asked if any "elect" would go to hell. Are believers and elect two different kinds of people?


    Have you ever read about God's sovereign will and God's permissive will? You see, if it is God's will that none be saved - and man can choose to not be saved and thus thwart God's will, that makes man stronger and more powerful than God. How can that be?


    But you miss a very key verse in this passage - verse 20.

    "We love because he first loved us."

    It is not conditional at all but shows our response to what God has already done. We love because he first loved us. Consistent with Scripture, we respond to God because He chose us. ALL of Scripture points to this. No man comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him. Jesus tells us in John 6:47 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." I think that's pretty clear.
     
    #37 annsni, Jan 23, 2011
  18. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    Unfortunately, some folks cannot accept the fact that God is soooooo Sovereign that He gave man a choice and man will have to be responsible for his own choice. Some of these people have to have someone to blame for those who do not go to Heaven and they blame God. In fact some even claim God wills them to sin.

    When the scripture is read for what it simply states it supports a Sovereign God making man in His own Image and that includes choice. When it is twisted and massaged it comes up with something some guy 500 years ago came up and it seem some folks take his word over that of scripture.

    Yes, God loves the whole world. Yes God accepts all who accept His Son, Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Why? Because, that is what God says in His Word. Anything else is faulty interpretation or following someone's word over our God's Word.

    Some of these people even put words in the mouths of those they disagree with and say it is universalism. (This leads me to believe they are not sure what universalism is.) Some decide the reason others do not agree with them is because those others are not smart enough. Then there are a few who are embarrassed by those who state these erroneous facts.

    Pray for them but also understand that we are on the same side as we all believe that the only way to Kingdom of God is thru His Son Jesus Christ not of our works but by our faith in God's Grace and in this we are assured of salvation.
     
    #38 John Toppass, Jan 23, 2011
  19. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Quite the misrepresentation of Calvinism! :laugh:

    Which is why I discovered this while just reading the Scriptures and not knowing for quite some time that there was even a guy who said the same thing or that the "idea" had a name other than 'Bible'.

    Amen!! This is absolutely Biblical.

    Oh? Goes both ways. I mentioned universalism because that seemed to be the belief of the OP. He stated in post #4 that all are elect. That is universalism.

    Yes, and we will pray for you too. Hey, we ALL can use prayer, right?
     
    #39 annsni, Jan 23, 2011
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
     
    #40 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 23, 2011
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