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My vision of what an IFB church should be

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by IfbReformer, Jun 1, 2004.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Furthermore IFB Reformer also said:

    So, there you go. You don't know . Neither do I, neither do any Primitive Baptist, neither do anybody else. Who knows ? Only God knows. So, why are you acting like you were his judge, and you were the judge of everyone that does not believe like you do ?
     
  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Hear ye, Hear ye the Court of His Grace's Peace is now in session and will now come to order. Justice Keith Robertsson, Squire of Lower Ducis Abbey presiding.

    Constable C4K has brought to the Court's attention a possible infraction of the non-heretic rule. A thread which was supposed to be a conversation with multiple participents has turned in to a dialog bordering on a debate. This in and of itself would not be of great concern to the Court.
    However, the parties are warned explicit charges of heresy will not be tolerated from either side. The Court and her officers will take immediate and unannounced action if such charges occur on this thread. This constitutes your first and only warning.
    Robertsson
    Justice of His Grace's Peace
    This Court stands adjourned.
     
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    To continue about conversion, as being a totally different thing to salvation/regeneration.

    Notice that in Romans 10, Paul begins by expressing his heart's desire for his countrymen, the Jews, that they may be saved. What we need to settle first is the issue of whether this is eternal salvation, or what we PB's call timely salvation, and what you simply call 'belief'.

    And the way we can see which one it is, is by looking at what Paul says, in progression,
    </font>
    • they have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge. That is, they were on fire for God, they loved Him, they wanted to serve Him and be right with Him, but, they were trying to attain these not in accordance with knowledge.</font>
    • Why not according to knowledge ? Because they were trying to be right with God according to their own righteousness, not knowing that God had demonstrated His righteousness thru Christ His Son. And that was exactly what Paul was when he was still Saul, in fact he hauled Christians to jail, and approved of Stephen's execution;</font>
    • But why must they know Christ ? To understand that Christ is the end of the law, he is the fulfillment and the fulfiller of the law;</font>
    • verses 5-7 he compares the righteousness thru the law and the righteousness that is of faith. Now, nowhere in these verses does Paul even imply that all of Israel who thus behave and thus believe are damned. Instead, he points out in verse 8, that:</font>
    • among those who thus behave, the word of faith, which they preached in his time, was near these people, even in their mouth and in thy heart . These were regenerate, born again children of God, albeit not believing and not behaving according to knowledge .</font>
    So, the question is, what 'save' is Paul talking about ? Is it the eternal salvation of the soul, or is it the temporal salvation of the earth bound man.
    If these are natural, unregenerate men, then apparently, the word of faith which Paul preaches cannot be nigh them, even in their mouth, and in their hearts since the Bible says that the natural man receiveth not the things of God.
    It can only be timely salvation, that is, them being spared from the endless cycle of fear and insecurities of those that adhere to the law and deliverance to boldness and security in the Lord since 'all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved', and 'the same Lord is rich unto all that call upon him'.

    In verse 16, Paul says the same sentiment you express, 'they have not all obeyed', and his thought continues on to examining Israel's conscience before the Lord. Did Israel not know ? They did, in fact. They had Isaiah and Moses and the prophets.

    That should be enough for God to condemn all Israel in all generation. But, no, his thoughts go on to Chapter 11 where he asserts that God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew and has reserved for Himself a remnant according to the election of grace , not according to their obedience to the gospel.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    I have not charged IFB Reformer with heresy. But, again, the posts have been long, and have sometimes gone off target.

    If I had, I withdraw it, and apologize.
     
  5. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer New Member

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    Squire,

    While I understand board policies about labeling people heretics, there is a point where we cannot dismiss something as serious as this without calling it out for what it is.

    In this conversation, it is not pinoybaptist but I who have been using the terms heresy and heretics to refer to Primitive Baptists.

    Squire, it is one thing to believe differently on things like Calvinism and Arminianism, or things like church structure and various standards Christians may have on different issues.

    I think we as Christians could disagree on anything except when it comes to the nature of Christ or the Gospel. If someone on this board says Jesus Christ was not God in the flesh he has no business on this board and should be called as he is, a heretic. This is not what pinoybaptist is doing, but what he is doing is saying that we do not have to believe on our savior to be saved - that is a false Gospel.

    Here are his own words:

    So there are elect that will not believe the Gospel yet open their eyes in heaven? Squire how is this not heresy?

    Squire listen to this astounding statement by pinoybaptist:

    "it seems to me you are saying also that unless one believes the gospel message, one is not saved"

    Squire, is it not core to the Christian faith that one must believe the gospel message in order to be saved, we could quote a boatload of scriptures passages that say just that.

    Squire, if you examine hundreds of other posts I have made you will see I do not throw around the label heretic. It is reserved for those who try and claim the name Christian, yet deny Gospel or Christ.

    Squire I am open to your explaining to me why pinoybaptist and other PBs are not teaching a heretical Gospel.

    IFBReformer
     
  6. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Pinoy, you would do well to examine your postion. While there is much to commend it, to an outsider it does look to spill over to that which is unexceptable.

    My question is how much of your position is a reaction to the movements of the day at the birth of the Primitive Baptists, e.g. Finneyism, the various Awakenings, Missions....? I can hardly see a man like Dr. John Gill supporting your view.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    None of us, of course, would know how Dr. John Gill will react. But, being the objective theologian that he is, I believe he will see the point I am driving at and be able to look beyond the 'accepted' religious beliefs of his or this time.

    I am not saying that one who is a child of God, who has not heard the preached Word, will live exactly as he has always lived after he has been effectually called by the Holy Ghost.

    The Bible says that they will have fruits. Their lives will change, their views will change, their overall conduct and principles will change to reflect what they truly believe in their hearts.

    They will have a thirst for righteousness, and they will in some form or way exhibit the character of the God who lives within them, even if they stayed in the religion which they were born into and which they grew up in.

    I never advocated that a cannibal will continue to murder people and eat them up, and be a child of God, or that a Muslim can go into the murderous fanaticism of militant Muslims today and be a child of God until he/she dies. No. There will be a manifested change in the child of God's life.

    What I do not accept is the idea that this can only happen by vocally accepting Jesus Christ as personal Savior thru the ministry of a gospel preacher because this ties up the saving work of Christ and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit to the faithfulness and ability of the preacher to ' sspread the faith
    ' and I find that idea unscriptural.

    To the true electionist, God had elected a definite number of people from all ages, and all nations and [/b] all [/b] times. This means God had people written in the Lamb's Book of Life who lived away and beyond the geographical and timely area where He chose to reveal Himself and where He chose people who will write about Him.

    For these people the shed blood of Christ has effectually secured salvation, none will be lost, regardless of whether they know their Savior's Name or not, whether they had themselves baptized into their Savior's church or not, whether they have read and followed their Savior's precepts or not.

    First, because these are not preconditions to salvation and these cannot result in salvation, which is only thru the blood of Christ and no way else. The knowledge of the Savior's Name is a timely blessing, and walking in the narrow path of truth is of a timely essence and has nothing to do with eternity.

    In short, everything that has to do with one's eternal destiny in Christ has been settled at the cross for everyone whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. I challenge anyone to prove that there is anything lacking with respect to the eternal destiny of the child of God and say that he believes salvation is OF the Lord and by grace thru faith.

    Second, according to IFB Reformer's Calvinism and gospel, as well as his Armiian friends, the ability of the Holy Spirit to regenerate is directly proportional to the degree of conversion they display, and I have repeatedly stressed that to PB's, whom he called heretics, regeneration and conversion are two different things.

    The degree of a regenerated child of God's conversion is directly proportional to the amount of knowledge to which he has been directed thru means at God's disposal, not the preacher. So, we witness Paul crying out, 'how then shall they call on him whom they have not believed......"

    But a child of God is a child of God, by God's etenral decree and purpose, in accordance to His mercy, and is a citizen of Heaven, redeemed thru the blood of Christ, whether he be ignorant of his sonship or not.

    There is nothing I need to examine. I believe in my heart this position is Scriptural, and that IFB Reformer and his crowd's position are not, because they perform lip service to God's sovereignty and wisdom and yet contradict these same praises they have by insisting that no child of God is truly saved unless he is fully knowledgable of and obedient to the gospel.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    We have always rejected Finneyism, and I cannot answer you with confidence on the 'various awakenings' as I know nothing about them. Educate me if you will.

    As for missions ? There are those among my people who have gone out to the fields and there are those who have criticized them for it. Personally I believe that God still issues 'Macedonian calls' today, for He had said, 'I am the Lord, I change not'.

    I also have the highest respect for missionaries, PB's or not, for the simple reason that it is no easy thing to pull out one's family from one's roots and resettle them into a strange surrounding, with strange sounds, and a strange language, particularly if one has 13 children as one of my people had, and because I myself have gone thru the rigors of missionary life in my time with the Arminian baptists.

    Those who protest and criticize among the PB's point to the Black Rock Address. But the Black Rock Address has not reject missions per se. What it did reject is the very principle that IFB Reformer and I have been arguing about, that salvation is only manifested thru conversion and that no one who is a child of God can be a child of God who had not accepted Christ and believed on Him first .

    In other words, the Black Rock conferees, with whom I and the majority of PB's agree, rejected the idea that the purpose of missions is to win souls to Christ instead of teaching and making disciples.
     
  9. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    That you reject "Finneyism" is not in question. And I picked Dr. Gill as he lived long before the Primitive Baptists were Primitive. The Awakenings I referred to are the Great Awakenings of the 18th century. The later ones would be for you debateable so I do not raise them.
    My question goes to something I have observed amoungst the brethren over the years. Many times positions develop as reactions to a what is considered an unscriptural practice. Said position may very well have a better founded Scriptural basis. But, many time there is a reactionary overlay. I know there are various pieces of practical theology my part of the Baptist galaxy holds to that are reactions to various controversies in days gone by.

    So, as you examine your position, the question stands.

    I would caution you to carefully choose your words. I once had a conversation with a Russian brother. If you think the Arminians you were a part of were Arminians, you haven't met a Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptist arguing directly out of their statement of faith. I had to caution him that if he continued on in his line of reasoning, I would have no choice but to consider him a heretic. The practical outworking of their theology is sufficiently different from their theoretical doctrine that I can work with them.
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Squire said:
    Perhaps you are right here, Squire. Perhaps I have not made the right choice of words to better express what our position among Primitive Baptists is.

    Let me try again:

    1. We do not believe that all the elect will hear the gospel in their lifetime. In addition to the theological reasons, for me, there are also practical reasons.
    One, I do not believe that every gospel out there is in essence and character the true gospel, and so not every preacher out there is a true preacher. That leaves matters entirely in the hands of the Holy Spirit.

    Two, not even missionary baptists or organizations of today can ever claim that they are satisfied that the whole word has been reached. Witness the continous call for more missionaries among those of your persuasion.
    In the meantime, do you and IFB Reformer make the claim that whosoever dies without hearing your preaching or converting to your gospel is hopelessly doomed to hell ? Tha the blood of Christ sufficiently covers and redeems His people only in as far as He is able to predestine the coming of human preachers to them ?

    No offense intended, Squire. But I believe in cutting to the chase. You seem to be implying that in the same sense that you can prohibit people calling others heretics you can declare who is the heretic and take action the way I read your posts about Russian Baptists.. If that is the case, then do it. But I will not budge from what I believe to be Scriptural: That God in His mercy chose to save a definite number of men from fallen humankind, sent His Son to redeem them, and did redeem them unconditionally, and is now regenerating those whom He saved independent of human means. This has nothing to do with conversion.
    2. We do not believe that one cannot be elect unless one hears the gospel and responds to it favorably, that is, leave one's religion and convert to Christianity openly. You have the example of Nicodemus, for one, whom the Bible never records as having joined Himself to The Way. The Bible also records that among the Pharisees, many believed on Him, but the Bible does not record that they left Judaism. Paul spoke of people like these as 'As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.Romans 11:28.
    3. We do believe in preaching the Biblical gospel, that Christ came into the world to save sinners, and all who thirst may freely come and drink of the water of Life, and that all who do so need to live a life in accord with the holiness of God who saved them. But again we aver that our ability to reach men, and the responses of those whom we do reach, do not negate the fact that God saves whom He will, where He will, and when He will, regardless of their geographical location, theology, creed, race, or language.
     
  11. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    My caution to my Russian brother was to cause him to stop for a moment and think. As he was coming from a different point of view, he was not aware of some of my presuppositions. In my case, the brother as he rose to the chase began to sound like a Roman Catholic (do v. done salvation). Yes, what I said was harsher than what I would have said to a native English speaker, this was due to the language barrier. Anything more graceful or diplomatic was being lost at sea.
     
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dear Pinyobaptist,
    I have wondered for some time now why it is believed that we are in a gospel dispensation, that to hang conversion on the gospel minister equals some sort of works ministered eternal life, and that immediate spiritual regeneration is upheld, yet it is or seems rejected that God is able to convert.

    This is a great difficulty to me, that imho is not supported by scripture.

    Perhaps it is best to acknowledge an understanding that historically PB's have believed and taught that none save those who do make profession of Christ have a right to hope; yet at the same time, the PB rejects this as a final evidence of their eternal position in Christ. Much is lost in not knowing of or understanding fully conditional time salvation and other terms of usage among PB brethren. Perhaps a thread in the Theology forum, or general baptist discussions would help to enlighten many to the terminology and belief of the PB brethren?
    May God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  13. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Thank you for your suggestion, Brother Dallas. As always you manifest a gentle spirit in you, and a kindness of words.

    I wish I had the same gift, but, unfortunately for me, God did not see fit to give me that gift.

    I feel a thread in Conditional Time Salvation is of no avail, since most in this Baptist Board, even among moderators, seem to have convinced themselves that Primitive Baptists are heretical or at best, misled, or maliciously intent on deceiving.

    IFB Reformer for example, pretended to seek a scholarly approach and asked for references, and I did give him some, but, I doubt if he will even take a look at those websites. I may be wrong, and will happily be, if ever.

    I have not held to the position, mind you, that God is not able to convert. What I have rejected is the idea that God uses the gospel to eternally save anyone and that everytime the word saved is used in the Bible it conveys eternal salvation and that only from hell to heaven.

    God saved His elect when they were yet sinners, Christ rejecting, heresy ridden, self-righteous sinners.

    In His eternal purpose and decree, everyone of His elect have always been and will always be 'safe' in Christ, regardless of their pre-regeneration theologies or creeds, or of wherever they may be, and this principle remains true post the cross.

    The gospel is to instruct the elect child of God, to edify God's people, not to make him an elect child of God.
     
  14. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dear Pinyobaptist,
    You said the following in your last thread:

    Please note that in the quote that I have placed in bold letters.

    First, I will say this is perhaps not the best forum for the question, to correct me, I will submit to the moderator(s) of this forum. If it is desired this be made a separate topic thread on another forum or that we engage in our discussion through pm, I will gladly follow any course advised.

    I have a question from the above bolded quote:

    What do you believe, or PB's in general, related to the spirit of anti-Christ?

    Do you believe that an elect child of God who is a Muslim, Bhuddist, Hindu, etc. who continues to bow before their false notion of God, (note none of these religious groups deny the existence of God or 'gods', yet each will deny the Christ of God). Is this not grounds for being in manifestation of the spirit of anti-Christ?

    If you disagree please help me to understand why you believe scripture would support your belief as such.

    I am not issuing a challenge, I really just have great difficulty in comprehending how this question could be answered yet how one could remain certain that those among these groups who are the elect of God will be able to continue in their Christ denying religion.

    Also note that you stated 'their pre-regeneration confessions, creeds...' would you or PB's in general believe this to remain true even among the 'post-regeneration' child of God?

    I do not have need to hang any of this knowledge on any power short of the eternal Spirit through which Christ offered himself to God.

    Where you see in my understanding that belief you equate as Arminianism at best, I see the same type teaching or rather, limiting of the power of God and (for lack of better wording) exaltation of the creature in permitting such a regenerated elect child of God to continue without conversion to Christ.

    As I said above, if you or the moderator(s) feel this should be continued elsewhere or in pm, I will be pleased to follow that course. On the same token, if you are pleased to disregard this post, I will not be offended.

    May God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Dear Brother Dallas:

    Thank you for the question.

    I would like to point out that pre-regeneration and post-cross are terms which I use and is not necessarily a PB doctrinal term.

    You asked:
    Now, as far as the spirit of anti-Christ is concerned, the Bible itself points out that there are many anti-Christs.

    Anti-Christ could also be a professing Christian who preaches another Christ. For example, a Christ who wants everybody saved but is powerless against the 'free will' and 'choice' of his fallen, hellbound creation whom He cannot love, work on, and draw to Him, unless He gets their permission and nod of approval first.

    Similarly, Anti-Christ is one who preaches that Christ will not care if His elect continues to be a man-eater, or a wife-beater, or a sodomite, or a fanatic religionist who will blow himself away along with others.

    I believe the above to be the extremes of this spectrum.


    I believe that God's elect is scattered all over the earth.

    An elect may have been born and raised a communist in a communist country, but when God regenerates him, there will be changes in his belief (though he may not be vocal about it because of political, social, or religious influences), there will be changes in his behavior and demeanor, in his thinking, and there will be a hunger and thirst for righteousness in him.

    Why ? Because he has a new man inside of him, and God had said He (not the gospel preacher) will create a new heart in him, and He (not the gospel, or the gospel preacher) will write His laws into their hearts.

    And this can occur without human preaching of the gospel or without his believing the gospel, since what is he to believe when no believer has yet taught him ?

    Every elect child of God will experience and undergo some form and degree of conversion, but his salvation never depends on his hearing the gospel or obeying it the way IFB Reformer wants it to happen.

    His education, learning, edification, and progress of his conversion depends on the teaching he hears and obeys.

    The same is true of an elect child of God who is born a Muslim, an animist, a Buddhist, a Judaist (as Paul), a Roman Catholic, or whatever.


    What I also protested against was judging a man unsaved simply because he did not profess belief, display obedience, join a church, and the usual outward manifestations that we tend to look for as basis for calling one a child of God.

    It is God who finally knows that, not man.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    I would like to go back to the terms pre-regeneration and post-cross so readers will better understand my position.

    As I have said elsewhere, everyone is born in enmity with God, with a fallen nature. The elect is not exempt. He was not born, in time , a regenerated soul. Yet he will not perish, because, he has always been safe in Christ according to God's eternal purpose and decrees.

    In due time, at any point between inception and his death, God will quicken him, that is, God will regenerate him, lead him to repent, and cause him to experience conversion.

    Post-cross is a term I use to indicate the activity of the Triune God, thru the Holy Spirit, of regenerating His people after the cross, when all the saving of His people has been accomplished in time by the Savior
    at the cross, who referred to this period, as the regeneration (Matthew 19:28) and, as pointed out by a brother in another thread, began with the thousands (first three, then five) that were added to the church at Pentecost.
     
  17. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer New Member

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    Actually I did want to find out what you believe. And I have. I have been and continue to study the websites you gave me.

    The problem is with them as well as your posts on this board, you take a few passages, which could be explained many ways and try interpret that vast majority of clear scriptures which tell us we must believe in order to be saved.

    Thats what cults do, they take a passage here or there, and then interpret the rest of the Bible with that passage.

    You reject the Biblical concept, that those God regenerates he converts, and before their death. And by conversion, we don't just mean a change in behavior or attitude, we mean converted in the sense that he will cause them to believe on his Son Jesus Christ, by whatever means he sees fit.

    You write off belief as a work or a partnership because if you accept that God causes all his elect to believe on his Son(post-cross as you would say) then would make a lot of good people around the world unsaved. Well my friend, if the Bible says there is only salvation by believing on the name of the Son of God, then thats what it means.

    This is one of several verses I have quoted on this discussion on belief being an essensial part of the salvation process, and God grants this belief, so there is no partnership on the part of man.

    John 3:18
    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

    The real issue here, is that you take passages which talk about the soverignty of God, and then try and make them distinct from those passages which talk about belief.

    They are one and the same, and no amount of verbal judo you try will seperate them.

    When I read in the scriptures that God chose me from the foundations of the world to be saved - that is true.

    When I read in the scriptures that God the Holy Spirit regenerates all his elect that is true.

    When I read that scriptures that Christ and his Apostles said I must believe on the Son of God in order to be saved, that is true as well.

    When I read that God grants this faith and belief and causes all his sheep(elect) to follow him and hear his voice that is true.

    I do not put a distinction where God does not put one. You must believe on the name of the Son of God if are to be saved. You cannot if you are not his elect because of you totally depraved nature. God regenerates, and converts(to the point of belief on Christ) all his elect.

    IFBReformer
     
  18. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer New Member

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    So lets look at the what you are saying by "even if they stayed in the religion which they were born into and which they grew up in."

    So God regenerates muslims who deny the Christ was Son of God and find the crucifiction, death and resurection of Christ to be a myth and utterly repugant, but does not convert them to Christ? He is fine with leaving them in a state which denies the very Savior which paid the price for their sins? According to your theology the answer must be yes.

    You have tried to paint in the box of saying God cannot save this people, but I have never said that. He can and does save muslims, just like he does people all over the world from different religions. The difference between me and you, is that I don't belief in half salvation. I believe that conversion is an instrinsic part of regeneration, and that God is able to and does convert all whom he regenerates. And just for clarification, the first and primary part of conversion is belief on the Son of God.


    So you "do not accept is the idea that this can only happen by vocally accepting Jesus Christ as personal Savior"?

    Acts 16:31
    31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

    Romans 10:9-10
    9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

    It seems to me according to clear teachings of the Word of God, that you(or any person who will be saved) must "confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead" and only "if" you do this "you will be saved". In fact it is "with your mouth that you confess and are saved" Sounds kinda of "vocal" to me.

    IFBReformer
     
  19. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer New Member

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    First of all a "true electionist" is one who accepts everything the Bible says about Salvation, not just the parts that are convient for his own view of how he thinks God should be. A "true electionist" does not see a conflict between the soverignty of God in salvation and the call to believe on the name of the Son of God. A "true electionist" does not need to cut God's salvation in two, when there is not one passage of scripture that does this.

    God could have done what you are saying, and make two salvations, one that is apart from the belief, and one that comes with belief. God could have done many things. But that is not what he did do according to his Word.

    I also would challenge you to support your claim that "God had people written in the Lamb's Book of Life who lived away and beyond the geographical and timely area where He chose to reveal Himself and where He chose people who will write about Him.". I agree from the scriptures that God has elect from every tribe and nation, but not every time. You can find that no where in the scriptures.

    I believe in Millenium, this will be fulfilled and God will have elect from every tribe and nation. But before that, it is very possible, and highly likely that there are places in the world that God does not have any elect in. I challenge you again, show scripture that says God has elect from every tribe and nation at all times?

    So God has elect that will never know his name in this lifetime? That these of these elect,"none will be lost, regardless of whether they know their Savior's Name or not"?

    Acts 4:11-12
    11He is
    " 'the stone you builders rejected,
    which has become the capstone. ' 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

    It seems to me there is no other name[that of Christ] "by which we must be saved". Your words are in direct contradiction to the clear words of the scripture. I know you don't want to accept the consequences of those words, but regardless they are the Word of God.

    IFBReformer
     
  20. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer New Member

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    There are no preconditions of salvation. That we agree on. But there are conditions, and this we would agree on as well.

    You would agree that in order for someone to be saved, God must have chosen them before the foundation of the world. But then you reject that all God chooses he causes to believe, despite the clear teachings of the scripture that those who do not believe stand condemned, and an elect person cannot ever be condemened, therefore all elect persons will believe, as Christ said that all his sheep would hear his voice and follow him.

    This is perhaps one of the most heretical statements I have ever heard:
    "The knowledge of the Savior's Name is a timely blessing, and walking in the narrow path of truth is of a timely essence and has nothing to do with eternity."

    Knowledge of the Savior's name "has nothing to do with eternity"?

    It has everything to do with eternity my friend - I pray that God would reveal this to you.

    Acts 4:12
    "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

    The Apostle here did not say believing on the name of Christ is optional, or an added bonus, it makes it clear in no uncertain terms that it is by this name(the name of Christ) that "we must be saved".

    Believing in the name of Christ has everything to with our Salvation - eternal salvation(which is the only kind of salvation):

    John 3:14-16(NIV)
    14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    So apparently salvation cannot be "OF the Lord" if God says we must believe on his Son in order to be saved? That is the supposed contradiction you try and setup, because you cannot accept the salvation has God has laid it out. May God reveal himself to you my friend.

    You sound like many I have met, who cannot believe in one God, and one way. Thats too narrow for them. No God would ever insist that everyone believe on his Son, and no God would ever reveal himself to only select number of people. The reality is, from the scriptures, this is the case, whether you want to accept it or not.

    There is nothing "lacking" in regards to the eternal destiny of God's elect, because all his elect he quickens and causes to believe as part of this quickening.

    IFBReformer
     
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