My vision of what an IFB church should be

Because:

• The Lord's hand is not shortened that it cannot save.
  
  Your theology and Calvinism limits the ability of the Lord to reach and regenerate His people apart from the ability of a preacher to [1] obey the 'great commission', and [2] travel to the uttermost parts of the earth;
  
• Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. (Romans 8:33) - This statement does not only imply that no sin can ever be imputed against the elect since it is the Almighty Himself who justified them, but, that no one claiming to be a child of God, as you claim to be, can ever charge one cannot be possibly saved unless one hears and obeys the gospel message preached thru a human voice;
  </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, who shall lay anything to charge of God's elect? That is a very interesting point. So how could Christ tell us that whoever does not believe stands condemned, yet you tell us there are some elect that will never believe in their lifetimes? How can an elect person not believe -thus stand condemened?
  
  So what do you mean by "The Lord's hand is not shortened that it cannot save." - do you mean the Lord tells us we must believe, then does not enforce this command?
  
  Do you mean that God half-saves some people?
  
  Do you mean that Christ shed his blood for some whom he would never reveal himself too? That he would just allow some of his elect to go on in ignorance of the one who bought them for their whole lives?
  
  
  
  God will regenerate him, cause him to believe that there is a God in heaven who saves sinners, cause him to realize he is a sinner like everyone else and is in need of mercy from the true God, cause him to worship the one and true God, and IF a gospel preacher comes to his locality he may be drawn of God to Christ, and therefrom know Christ, and believe gospel instruction.
  
  But you cannot consign anyone to hell and damnation simply because they did not believe your gospel preaching while in your presence and in your lifetime. Do you know they never will ?
  
  And how in the world do you have the boldness and temerity to demand that all elect children of God are elect only if they listen to the gospel when even the Arminians themselves are having a hard time making people 'accept' Jesus considering the bad examples given by most Christians and churches today ?
  </font>[/QUOTE]In regards to salvation, I speak the same Words that the New Testament speaks, there is no other name under heaven wherebye "we must be saved".
  
  I speak boldly the Gospel of Christ as Paul and Barnabus did:
  
  Acts 13:46
  "Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles."
  
  Those who reject the Gospel, and Christ as Savior, as Paul's Jewish audience did here, are not "worthy of eternal life". So I will continue to boldly proclaim Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in the Christ the Son of God alone.
  
  
  I do not believe in "gospel regeneration", but Holy Spirit regeneration. The problem is that you reject that the Holy Spirit's regeneration causes complete conversion to the name of Christ. So you believe in essense, in a half-regeneration. The Holy Spirit gets the process going in some people, even to the point where they believe in God, but he cannot complete it in some so they will trust in their Savior, Jesus Christ. I reject such a half-regeneration as unbiblical.
  
  
  pinoybaptist,
  
  Lets talk about Bathala, the name your people used for God.
  
  This is where the rubber meets the road. Salvation is only found in following God by whatever name you call him as he reveals himself.
  
  Psalm 96:5
  5 For all the gods of the nations are idols,
  but the LORD made the heavens.
  
  Do the God's of nations here include Bathala? I would say yes, you would say no.
  
  Before Israel God revealed himself to various peoples, but after God chose to create a chosen nation and people, did he still continue to reveal himself to others?
  
  Psalm 147
  19 He has revealed his word to Jacob,
  his laws and decrees to Israel.
  20 He has done this for no other nation;
  they do not know his laws.
  
  Here is the truth of the matter my friend, at the begining, at the tower of Babel, many peoples rejected God's Word and his way.
  
  They left and scattered themselves all over the world. Some even made it as far as the Philippines, where your people come from.
  
  Maybe centuries later, they decided acknowledge God again and since they lost the knowledge of him came up with their own name and their own attributes they thought God had.
  
  This is not enough my friend. God could have chosen to reveal himself to many peoples again an again throughout the world, even after Babel. But he did not, he chose a man, Abraham and reveal his word and saved a people that came through him.
  
  He did not reveal his ways to other nations after Abraham, but is through Abraham's seed that we have the Gospel and Salvation given to us.
  
  Even when Paul addressed the Pagans at Rome, and spoke of the unknown God, he never let one of their pagan deities represent God. He took the God they did not know, and let him represent God.
  
  Just as a Missionary would have to do in the Philippines, when he tells them of the one true God.
  
  I am sorry if you think this unfair, or unloving of God. Many people do not understand that God did not have to save anyone, but praise God he choose to save the few he did - for he could have left all mankind to perish.
  
  IFBReformer

 

You see here is where you make a contradiction where there is none. PBs and others like yourself who are not PB(but still what I would consider Hyper-Electionists) try and paint a picture that if belief has anything to do with eternal(the only kind) salvation then God is not really soverign and man has a part in his salvation.

The problem is, and you continue to ignore it, that if God places a condition, and then he himself fulfils the condition, we have no part in it, and Salvation is still completely of the Lord. You fail to address this concept over and over.

Christ said unless the father draws him, no man can come to him. That is a condition, because if a man is not drawn and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, he will never come on his own because of his total depravity, yet God fufils his own condition by drawing those who are his elect, so again man has no part, but it is a condition regardless.

Even Christ's death on the cross was part of God's condition for salvation, someone had to take the sin of man, and that was Christ. Again, God fulfils his condition, man has no part in it.

Just for those who may still be following this conversation, here are the differences between the three camps in simple form:

Arminian:
Belief on Christ the Son of God as Savior causes Regeneration

Calvinism:
Regeneration causes Belief on Christ the Son of God as Savior

Hyper-Electionism(PBs and other): Regeneration does not always cause full belief(full conversion), in other words the person may still reject Christ as Savior, and just believe in God.

So contrary to your belief that there are no conditions for eternal salvation, God has set them.

He set the condition that someone who was perfect must take on the sins of the world, and he supplied the means and met his own condition with his Son, Jesus Christ.

He set the condition that unless the father draws a men, none will come to him, and his fulfills his own condition again by drawing his elect.

He also set the condition that unless someone believes on his Son as Savior, the will not have ETERNAL LIFE. But once again, he meets his own condition and causes all those he draws and regenerates to believe. So again Salvation is all of the Lord.

The Arminian believes God does not cause this belief, so man has a part in his salvation, a partnership.

The Calvinist believes God causes this belief in all who are his, and it has nothing do with anything of their own power, so salvation is of the Lord.

You reject that belief has anything to do with eternal salvation, which puts you outside the realm Biblical Christianity in regards to the most critical doctrine in the scriptures, that of salvation.

 

Peter was not reconverted, he simply failed the Lord in regard to his courage, and the Lord restored his confidence. Peter, never ceased in his heart to believe what he believed at the moment of his regeneration and conversion.

The experiances of missionaries do not negate the written Word of God. There are a lot of cultic churches which are based more on experiance than on the Word of God which they claim to believe. Does God have a people from every tribe and nation at all points in time - nope and the Bible never said he did.

In the millennium will he have a people from every tribe kindred and nation - sure.

But there is no verse in the Bible that says God has ALWAYS had elect from every tribe kindred and nation - this was my challenge to you to prove.

IFBReformer

 

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that[conditional] whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Here is the problem for you, John 3:16, makes it clear belief is required of those who will have eternal life. Now again, God causes this belief, so man has no part in it.

Verse 18 tells us who is condemned, it is those who do not believe.

Now what about the "already", well I would like to point out to you that verse 18 does not say "18Whoever believes in him is not condemned already, the "already" only applies to unbelievers here in the context of not just this verse, but the entire passage here.

An unbeliever who is not one of God's elect(and thus will never believe) stands condemned already from the begining of time, because God will never work in his life by regenerating him and causing him to believe on his Son, there is nothing left for God to do with him, thus he stands condemned already.

For the believer, God has work on him to do, first in regenerating him and causing him to believe in his Son, and then in causing him to grow in Christ. But once again, it is all God's doing.

You see we were included in Christ, when we were regenerated by the Holy Spirit - who caused us to believe, and thus when we believed we were indwelled with the Holy Spirit as a deposit of our future inheritance.

Ephesians 1:11-14
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Now if the scriptures clearly say here, that having believed, we are marked with the Holy Spirit(or indwelled), then how can someone who never believes on Christ be indwelled with Holy Spirit?

IFBReformer

 

Once again, I come back to my previous position, that God can set all the conditions he wants for salvation, and as long as he fufils them, Salvation is all of the Lord.

Just for clarification, I have never ever said that you must believe in order to be quickened, I have said if you are quickened the you will be caused to believe on Christ as Savior.

Again you are taking your experiances, and those of others, to reinterpret clear passages of scriptures to meet your own conclusions based on the experiances of others. The scriptures stand clear, those who do no believe on the Son will not enter into eternal life, whether you accept them or not.

I am not placing a condition on eternal life, as you have clearly shown us all, Christ did. You simply have to change what 'life' means and what 'saved' means in order to match up with the way you think God should be.

God can place whatever conditions on salvation he wants, and as long as he fulfils those conditions, Salvation is all of the Lord. He causes us to believe, which is the final condition of salvation, so salvation is all of Lord, praise God.

IFBReformer

 

Do you condition eternal life upon believing in Christ, or your knowledge of their profession?

Who is it that searches the heart and tries the reins of men?

What condition begets eternal life? How are we to know that those folks do not possess a fundamental knowledge of Christ?

What did God say about revealing what he was doing in Sodom and Gomorrah? Did he say I must have preacher to go tell Abram; or did he say Abram is my servant, shall I hide that which I do from my servant?


May God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton </font>[/QUOTE]Eternal life is not condition on me knowing of someone's profession, only that God knows it. So if God chooses to miraculously reveal himself to some tribe on the other side of the world, as he did with Paul - great, and if they believe that revelation (God will cause them to if they are his elect) then they are saved.

IF they possess a fundamental knowledge of Christ, and have believed on him(as the Holy Spirit will cause them to do if they are his elect) then they are saved.

So what about Sodom and Gommorah - God did send a messanger to Abraham. Whether God himself, or an angel, or a preacher, God always reveals himself, and consistantly.

IFBReformer