Name That Figure of Speech

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Feb 5, 2018.

  1. agedman Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps you haven’t finished reading the Revelation?

    Look at the last two chapters, it is forever.
     
  2. John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Unless you can tell me what actual figure of speech you are talking about, your thoughts on this are not germane to the thread. So my question must be, does Jer. 33:7 have a figure of speech in it? If so, please name it.
    A type is not a figure of speech, which are always symbolic. A type is when the Biblical author uses a literal, historical event to illustrate a literal event contemporary to the author. The Greek word is typos, which has a meaning of illustration, example, etc. (See 1 Cor. 10:6.)

    Sure, but it's irrelevant to the thread until you find a figure of speech in your passage.
     
  3. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I do: the "figure" spoke of the never ending "Davidic Monarchy" which is fulfilled by the same Person Who fulfills the "Figure" seen in the Levitical Priesthood, which you state at the end of your statement, which begs the question...

    ...why do you ask a question then answer it?

    And then turn around and say the fulfillment never happens.

    I would also point out that the Priesthood and Sovereignty of Christ are not Eternal, but actually began...when He fulfilled the Prophecy.

    One last thing:

    You are the only one I have ever heard say that the Tribulation follows the Millennial Kingdom. Could you quote someone else who has said this?

    The order is the Rapture, the Tribulation, the Return of Christ, the Millennial Kingdom, the Great White Throne, and then the Eternal State.

    But I would be curious to see who it is that you are quoting.

    By the way, great thread JOJ.


    God bless.
     
  4. Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Jer. 33:19 And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, 20 “Thus says the Lord: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.
    I explained/answered because John did not follow what I was asking. The problem I see is that God's promise in Jeremiah regarding David's son on the throne & a continuing priesthood was to be fulfilled by the LORD Jesus Christ when he FINISHED his saving work & ascended to heaven. The 70 years ended, & the Israelites returned to the land. Gabriel (Dan. 9) extended the prophecy to 490 years for the deliverance to be completed by Messiah.

    Soon after the prophecy the Davidic kingdom ended & Israel still has no king - apart of course of the LORD Jesus Christ - but he is reigning in heaven, not Jerusaelm.

    Dispensationalists are looking for fulfilment of the prophecy when Jesus returns & occupies David's throne in Jerusalem for the millennium. 2,600 years & counting & still waiting.

    And the Levites haven't functioned as a priesthood since the destruction.

    Jesus taught a great tribulation before the destruction. That's fulfilled prophecy. What happens at the end of the millennium - which I believe is the present Gospel age - is taught in Rev. 20
    7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

    That's a great rebellion, not "The Tribulation."

    This is not off-topic so we'll just have to leave our different understandings of prophecy.
     
  5. Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    John, do we see a figure of speech in the opening of Revelation -
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

    A literal reading sees the events prophesied in the first century. I understand therefore that John had his visions before the AD 70 destruction. (I've read the arguments for a 90s date.) Regardless of the date of writing, the time indicators cannot be stretched to 2,000 years. If they are, there is no specific blessing for John's first readers, companions in tribulation.

    By disp understanding, the visions relate to a tribulation at the time of the rapture/return of the LORD Jesus Christ. Is a figure of speech being used to explain the use of a short time to mean a very long time?
     
  6. John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I don't see any figures of speech in this passage. Do you? If so, please tell us what word or phrase it is, and what figure of speech it is: idiom, simile, personification, etc. That's what this thread is about. Otherwise, your post does not fit this thread, but should be in a thread about the allegorical interpretation of prophecy.
    No, a literal reading says that the term "shortly" is a prepositional phrase, en taxos, meaning quickly (with speed), and so it is translated in the KJV in Luke 18:8, Acts 12:7, and Acts 22:18. It does not refer to the time lapse before Christ would come (and AD 70 would not be "in a short time" anyway), but to the manner, with great speed.

    Also, any discussion about the dating of the book of Revelation does not belong in this thread, since it is not a discussion of figures of speech.
    Nope, simple Greek grammar and usage explain the term, as I have shown. There are no figures of speech in the passage, so it is declarative, and meant by the author to be interpreted literally.
     
  7. John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    This is not contributing to the thread, which is about figures of speech. What you are doing is allegorical interpretation, not discussing figures of speech.

    It's really quite simple. If there are no figures of speech in a verse or passage, it is declarative and should be interpreted literally. If the interpreter looks at the passage, sees no figure of speech, and decides not to interpret it literally, he or she is doing allegorical interpretation. He or she may deny this, but that does not change the facts of the matter.
    Yes, this is off topic, unless you can show me an actual figure of speech in this passage. But I simply have to correct your misunderstanding of the literal interpretation of Revelation.

    No dispensational or historical premil scholar that I know of interprets this as part of "The Tribulation," as you put it. It is completely obvious that this is a separate event from the tribulation, since it takes place after the perfect 1000 year reign of our blessed Savior and King, the Lord Jesus Christ. So yes, it is a "great rebellion," but not the Tribulation
     
  8. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I gotcha, lol.

    Prophecy has a habit of having multiple fulfillments (and just to clarify I don't mean multiple meanings). For example, prophecy concerning Antichrist can be seen to be fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphanes, yet is not the ultimate fulfillment, because Christ prophesies of his role in the Tribulation. I don't have a problem with seeing an application to the tribulation that took place in the first century, but, I do not view it as the ultimate end times fulfillment, where we will see the Prophecy of Revelation fulfilled, ultimately ending with the Antichrist being the first inhabitant of Hell.

    The coming of Christ is also another example, because Prophecy was fulfilled with His Appearing unto man, but not all Prophecy will be ultimately fulfilled until both His Return, as well as our entrance into the Eternal State.

    In regards to the issues you have with the above Prophecy, as I said earlier they are fulfilled in Christ, where there is without question a Son of David on the Throne eternally, and the continuing ministry of the Levites is seen in the Body of Christ, who are themselves Priests.

    That does not mean we will not see Levitical Service reinstated in the Millennial Kingdom, nor do we have to impose an eternal quality to what is, and always has been...a temporal/earthly figure. The fulfillment of the second statement...


    21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.


    Just as the Body of Christ is the heavenly reality of the earthly figure/parable of the Tabernacle (we are the Temple of God, that place where God resides), even so they are the ministers that fulfill the figure seen in the Levitical Priesthood.


    Just not possible.

    There is simply no way to make the Prophecy of Daniel fit the First Century events.

    Consider:


    Daniel 9:24-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



    In v.24 we can see fulfillment in that it was through the Work of Christ that the transgressions of the Old Testament Saints were eternally redeemed (Hebrews 9:15), Reconciliation was accomplished between God and man, the implication being that was not taking place prior to the Cross (2 Corinthians 5:19), and the imputation of everlasting righteousness (contrasted with the temporary and temporal righteousness achieved by men through faith and works) began based on the Work of Christ.

    However, that does not mean that all is fulfilled in its ultimate purpose. The true fulfillment will not just be our being saved from the penalty of sin through New Covenant relationship, but when we are saved from the very presence of sin in the Eternal State.

    Now, to the issue of the Seventieth Week, and this will be as brief as I can make it, and would suggest a thread for this issue if you are interested in pursuing it in more detail.

    In vv.26-27 we see the unnamed Seventieth Week, and the problem the A-millenialist and the Preterist have is trying to make this ultimately fulfilled in the First Century.

    Here are just a few:

    While we can say that Christ is the Messiah mentioned, Who is cut off, we cannot say that the "prince to come" is Christ, which is what many do in an attempt to make this fit First Century events. the reasons we cannot are...


    A. Christians did not destroy Jerusalem and the Sanctuary...Rome did;
    B. The War has never ended;
    C. Christ did not establish any Covenant for one week (seven years), the Covenant He established is Eternal;
    D. Christ did not interrupt the Covenant He established in the middle of the week (seven years) following His establishment/strengthening of the Covenant in view;
    E. Christ did not cause Sacrifice and Oblation to end 3 1/2 years after He established the New Covenant, which began in full on the Day of Pentecost;


    Keep in mind that the Prophecy centers on Daniel's People, it is not a generality applied to it. So the Covenant which is strengthened is not the New Covenant, but the Covenant of...

    ...Daniel's People.

    The "prince to come" is the Antichrist, and he will strengthen the Covenant of Law in regards to Daniel's People (Israel), and will, in the middle of the Week (seven years), stand in the Temple and declare himself god. This correlates to the 3 1/2 year ministry pf the Two Witnesses, who cannot be harmed during their ministry. And it will be only after they are killed, resurrected, and raptured...that Antichrist will be able to commit the Abomination of Desolation, which I view to be his standing in the Temple declaring himself to be god.


    Continued...
     
  9. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The Israelite did not return to the Land in the First Century, they were scattered.

    In order for the First Century to be the fulfillment of Prophecy, we must see that return, but more importantly, the Return of Christ.


    Not Gabriel, but God, and He did not "extend it," that is the Prophecy itself.

    70 Weeks, 490 years.


    And Paul explains this to us, saying that as a Nation, Israel has been in part blinded, and it will not be until Christ returns that Israel will receive the Redemption prophesied for them:


    Romans 11:25-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:



    That is not entirely correct. They, and myself as well, do not see His Return as the ultimate fulfillment, just part of it. The Prophecy will be fulfilled when this takes place, but, ultimate fulfillment is seen in the Eternal State.


    You can't count those period of time between the first 69 weeks and the beginning of the Seventieth Week. I take the position that the 69 weeks ended at Christ's death. And that is the Prophecy:

    Daniel 9:24-27
    King James Version (KJV)


    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.



    There are three periods given, the first being seven weeks, the second being 62 weeks, and the final being one week.

    And while it could be debated that there is no reason there could not be a gap between the first two periods, seeing there is one between the second and third, we still are not able to calculate all time from the giving of the Prophecy and the fulfillment. The reason being...we simply have not seen the events described fulfilled. We can say dogmatically that the Seventieth Week follows Christ's death (Messiah cut off), which gives only two thousand years roughly.


    Continued...
     
  10. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Depends on how you look at it. If you consider that the ministry of the New Covenant has been given to the Body of Christ...


    2 Corinthians 3:6-8
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

    8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?



    Then we see the ministers of Christ (the Son of David on the Throne eternally) have been functioning for about two thousand years, and will continue to function as Priests eternally (and that's an odd concept, lol).


    In part, but, we have not seen Matthew 24-25 fulfilled in its ultimate function. First in that Christ has not Returned and judged the Earth (the Sheep and Goat Judgment), and secondly He has not caused this universe to pass away and judged mankind at the Great White Throne.


    There is one last stand of Satan and those on earth who joins ranks with them, and we see ultimate fulfillment of Prophecy.


    Not sure how you can possibly see this passage teaching that the Millennial Kingdom is "the Gospel Age." It's been two thousand years, and still Christ has not returned.

    Another issue you have to deal with is that Satan has not been bound:


    1 Peter 5:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:




    And we see two entirely different endings in those two distinct events. When the Prophecy of the Old Testament and New which refer to Christ's return take place, there is a physical destruction of unbelievers, while believers are left alive. In Revelation 20 we see the heavens and earth pass away and the Eternal State begins.

    There is no physical Judgement such as the Sheep and Goat Judgment in Revelation 20...


    Revelation 20:7-11
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


    ...which means these must be two separate events.

    Its either that...or Prophecy is in error, and we know that is not the case.


    Did you mean to say it was off-topic? Not entirely, because it does speak toward figurative language, though I would agree for the most part, hence the suggestion for a new thread if you wanted to follow this up in more detail.


    God bless.
     
  11. Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I'll reply to you Darrell when I'm properly on line.
    All this is off topic.
     
  12. Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Back on topic.
    We've moved to Peterchurch in the Golden Valley, through which runs the River Dore.
    Is that an ancient mediaeval geographical pun?
     
  13. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Like I said before, great thread. I would actually like to better understand some of the things you are discussing.

    Okay, not being a wise guy here (we all have our off days, lol), but there is figurative language used in v.8, right? How would you identify these two (underlined)? And just to clarify my own position, the figurative language does not nullify the literal nature of the teaching in this passage, as it does not in any Prophecy of Scripture.


    God bless.
     
  14. John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Let's see what we can do here.

    The first underlined phrase, "the four corners of the earth," is an idiom, which is a word or phrase where the meaning is not expressed in the literal words. A common one in modern English is "raining cats and dogs."

    The second underlined phrase, "whose number is as the sand of the sea," is hyperbole, or purposeful exaggeration for a rhetorical purpose. My mother used to use hyperbole all of the time: "If I've told you once, I've told you a 1000 times!"

    And the whole point of this thread agrees with you about prophecy. Figures of speech are for a rhetorical purpose, and we must not doubt prophecy simply because a figure of speech is used.
     
  15. John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    So, contrary to what has been said over and over on the BB by amil and preterist folk, figurative language is not a proof that their "spiritualizing" or allegorizing method of hermeneutics is correct. According to our Eng. 101 college textbook, "Use figures of speech to make your writing vivid. Figures of speech make your writing more vivid and concrete, because they create a specific image in the reader's mind" (James A. Chapman, College Grammar and Composition Handbook, p. 132).
     
  16. HankD Well-Known Member
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    Why I am not a Calvinist....

    I don't want to be addressed as a follower of a mortal human being.

    Calvin or Arminius or Augustine or Luther or ... ad infinitum (well I guess not infinitum)

    I know we mean well, but shouldn't we present our case from the scripture, forget the names, even Paul was bothered by this.

    There is only one name: Jesus

    Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
     
  17. agedman Well-Known Member
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    it is true that some need lots of illustrations, and others can from the words alone construct the image in their mind’s eye.

    “The beautiful, blue, baboon, blowing, bubbles, biking, backwards,” can bring to the reader a vivid image, or they can open the children’s book and look at the drawing.
     
  18. Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    That is alliteration - all those Bs.
     
  19. John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    In linguistics, the term "figure of rhetoric" is sometimes used. That is "an expression or construction intended to produce special effects by deliberate deviation from the ordinary or standard use" (Mario Pei and Frank Gaynor, Dictionary of Linguistics, p. 73).

    So again, the figures of speech we've seen on this thread are all to produce a rhetorical effect, something Jesus Christ did impeccably well. They should not be used to determine doctrine.
     
  20. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Could you give an example of Christ using figures of speech to produce rhetorical effect that we would not base doctrine on? Off the top pf my head I am thinking of forgiving someone 70x7 times. Is that what you mean?

    And I took a look at idioms, and didn't realize just how complicates figurative language is. Read about fixed and mobile idioms.


    God bless.