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'Nazi' treatment of Palestinians - Godwin's Law violation or serious point?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Matt Black, Jun 20, 2003.

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  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Please see the following article:- http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=417162

    I also listened to an interview with both Oona King and Yuri Dromy last evening; the 'ghetto' comparison I found unnecessarily inflammatory and polemic, although arguably the situation is not terribly far removed in effect if not in intent. What I did find interesting was that King described herself as a 'Zionist' but decried the fact that the Israelis had 78% of the land and the Palestinians 22% (of what, she did not say, presumably mandate Palestine), stating that the Palestinians (over a million) were hemmed into an area the size of Isle of Wight and calling for an end to Israeli settlements within that area. Dromy, while attacking her remarks, also agreed that the Israelis should withdraw from Palestinian territory.

    Apart from the highly-unfortunate 'ghetto' remark, a very interesting and, I thought, heartening conversation.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt

    PS Sorry if this is the wrong forum - wasn't sure whether to start here or 'politics' - feel free to move it if appropriate
     
    #1 Matt Black, Jun 20, 2003
  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    What is Godwin's Law?
     
    #2 Squire Robertsson, Jun 26, 2003
  3. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    The Israelies ACTUALLY rule a minority of the mandate of "Palestine". The Palestinians actually have a state bigger than Israel - it's called "Jordan". If the Arabs won't allow their "brothers" into their rightful country, and just leave them as a thorn in Israel's side, then there's going to be trouble, isn't there???
     
    #3 Bartholomew, Jun 26, 2003
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Squire, Godwin's Law postulates that in any debate, he who compares his opponents to the Nazis has automatically lost the argument, the rationale being that a) this is more of a 'last resort' insult than an argument (as Monty Python would put it:" this isn't an Argument, this is Abuse") and b)there are usually better more accurate 'regime comparisons' that can be drawn.

    And Bartholomew - those who inhabit Jordan are called Jordanians, not Palestinians. Read your history.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #4 Matt Black, Jun 27, 2003
  5. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    #5 Matt Black, Jun 27, 2003
  6. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    And Matt, Jordan used to be part of the mandate of Palestine. It was carved off to create an Arab state in said mandate of Palestine. So it isn't called "Palestine". So what? It is the Palestinian state for the Arabs. Read your history.
     
    #6 Bartholomew, Jun 27, 2003
  7. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Er...no. This is classic Zionist misinformation, I'm afraid.

    I have read my history:- As a result of the Anglo-french Sykes- Picot agreement of 1916, the British and French agreed to carve up the Middle Eastern territory of the Ottoman Empire, including the then provinces of Mesopotamia, Syria and Palestine. This was in breach of their promises made to both the Arabs, in the person of the Hashemite Sheriff Hussein of Mecca (Lawrence of Arabia's friend), for a united independent Arab state in these provinces, and to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration of 1917, promising a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Essentially these promises were to get both ethnic groups to fight for us against the Turks.

    After the warin 1920,the following mandates were set up - Syria, run by the French (despite Hussein's attempts to set him and his sons up in Damascus as the capital of 'Arabia', he was rudely ejected by the French), which was swiftly further divided into Syria and Lebanon (largely to appease the Maronite Christians); Palestine, Trans-Jordan and Iraq (Mesopotamia) run by the British. As a sop to Hussein, two of his sons were allowed to be kings of Trans-Jordan and Iraq (Hussein became king of the Mecca-based Hejaz until his kingdom was forcibly incorporated by Ibn Saud into Saudi Arabia in 1924), with the British administering Palestine directly. Therefore your comment that Trans-jordan was part of the Palestine mandate and meant to be a 'Palestinian homeland' are as innaccurate and erroneous as saying that Iraq was part of the Palestine mandate and a Palestinian homeland. Jordan was Hashemite, Palestine Palestinian and Jewish. Jordanians are Jordanians, Iraqis are Iraqis and Palestinians are Palestinians. To say "Oh they're all Arabs so it doesn't matter where they live" is like saying "Oh, Americans, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders, Irish, Scots and Welsh are all English-speaking, so they can all live in England and it doesn't matter"

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #7 Matt Black, Jun 27, 2003
  8. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Been surfing around some of those PRO-"Palestinian" web sites, again, eh Matt? Another lesson in revisionist history. [​IMG]

    http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/meaning.html
     
    #8 LadyEagle, Jun 27, 2003
  9. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    None of this comes from pro-anything websites - it's just general history. I have already elsewhere given statistics concerning the proof of Arab inhabitation of Palestine prior to 1948 so I don't see there's any point in me digging those up again unless people desperately want me to. I note your source however comes from a website referring to 'Eretz Israel' - hardly unbiased.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #9 Matt Black, Jun 27, 2003
  10. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Ahhhem, getting back to the title of this thread, I'd say the speakers, King and Dromy, are guilty of at least an infraction of Godwin's Law. Remembering the words of my college logic teacher, their
    Using the term willy-nilly, lessens the horror the term properly should invoke in its hearers. The people it should be used to describe (Slobodan Milosovic comes to mind) escape the term's full impact because it has become devalued through over and indiscriminate use. I put it down to today's need for sound bites and lazy thinking.
     
    #10 Squire Robertsson, Jun 27, 2003
  11. Bartholomew

    Bartholomew New Member

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    Matt, take a look at the British mandate of "Palestine", 1920 . You'll find Jordan was part of "Palestine". You say the "Palestinians" are not the same as the Jordanians (or other Arabs). Why not? Please show me their distinct culture, language or national history. Palestine has NEVER been a country, but only geographical location.
    PS I'm going to be unable to come back to Baptist Board much now for three months, but it was nice discussing this with you! [​IMG]
     
    #11 Bartholomew, Jun 27, 2003
  12. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    One problem in discussing the national designations of the Mid-East geography is that labels can overlap. (Sorry, if the last was as clear as mud.) The example that comes to my mind is what did the Kingdom of Transjordan include?</font>
    • Should we only apply the label to what is now the Kingdom of Jordan with the Jordan River as its western international boundary?</font>
    • Or should we include what is now commonly called the West Bank as an intregal part of Transjordan?</font>

    [ June 28, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]
     
    #12 Squire Robertsson, Jun 27, 2003
  13. Haruo

    Haruo New Member

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    Er, Squire, I think you meant now, not not!

    Personally I think Godwin's Law, if it was in force in that jurisdiction, was violated, although I agree with their negative assessment of the Israeli occupation/containment policies.

    Haruo
    Quondam High-School ASB Parliamentarian
     
    #13 Haruo, Jun 27, 2003
  14. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Master Haruo: I have so edited my last post.
     
    #14 Squire Robertsson, Jun 28, 2003
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