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Featured New Heaven New Earth...different than you have heard.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Here is a different way some have understood this passage in 2 pet.3


     
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In using the bible itself to interpret the symbolic language to literal, this can happen:Thumbsup
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In this message a case is made that this is not the end of the world but rather the promised change that the NT. Gospel brings
     
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    John Owen On the New Heaven and New Earth-Preterism, new heaven and new earth, and eschatology and Preterist soteriology; Preterism and Preterist eschatology, rapture and prophecy from a preterist perspective

    Dr. John Owen On
    The "New Heavens and Earth"
    (2 Peter 3:13)


    • The apostle makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was destroyed, but only men that liveth on the earth; and the apostle tells us (ver. 7) of the heaven and earth that were then, and were destroyed by water, distinct from the heavens and the earth that were now, and were to be consumed by fire; and yet as to the visible fabric of heaven and earth they were the same both before the flood and in the apostle's time, and continue so to this day; when yet it is certain that the heavens and earth, whereof he spake, were to be destroyed and consumed by fire in that generation. We must, then, for the clearing of our foundation a little, consider what the apostle intends by the heavens and the earth in these two places.
      ' 1. It is certain that what the apostle intends by the world, with its heaven, and earth (vers. 5, 6), which was destroyed ; the same, or some-what of that kind, he intends by the heavens and the earth that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire (ver. 7) ; otherwise there would be no coherence in the apostle's discourse, nor any kind of argument, but a mere fallacy of words.
      ' 2. It is certain that by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world; and therefore the destruction intimated to succeed by fire is not of the substance of the heavens and the earth, which shall not be consumed until the last day, but of person or men living in the world.
      '3. Then we must consider in what sense men living in the world are said to be the world, and the heavens and earth of it. I shall only insist on one instance to this purpose among many that may be produced: Isa. li. 15, 16. The time when the work here mentioned, of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God was when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state; then He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And since it is that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in that languaue which seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isa. xxxiv. 4, which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like also is affirmed of the Roman Empire (Rev. vi. 14), which the Jews constantly affirm to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Saviour Christ's prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. xxiv.) He sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
      ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-
      '(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of tile Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them.
      '(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28.
      ' This being the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth continued in them.
      'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.
      'There is no outward constitution nor frame of things in government or nations, but it is subject to a dissolution, and may receive it, and that in a way of judgment. If any might plead exemption, that, on many accounts, of which the apostle was discoursing in prophetical terms (for it was not yet time to speak it openly to all) might interpose for its share.'*







      * Dr. Owen's Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11. Works, folio, 1721.
     
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  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 65:17, ". . .For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. . . .". This has not happened yet.
     
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Did you listen to the message in the OP?

    Can you show why it is not correct?
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No brief. And 47 minutes. No.
    Unless it is referring to after the final judgement it is totally false.
     
  8. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will morn because of Him. Even so, Amen."
    Revelation 1:7

    Is your Bible illustrated?
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    you cannot.listen to a message...lol
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe this week end when I can make that time to do so. Again it's 47 minutes and I have at this time no clue as to what claims will be made. Now I already know the New Heaven and Earth will not be until after the final judgement.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    That is how most people take it after a casual read.
    The video seeks to examine it from scripture to scripture.
    2pet.3
    isa.65,66
    ezk47
    jn7
    rev21,22
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The post final Judgement is not a casual but a definitive read.
    ". . . in the which the heavens shall pass away in a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. . . ." Revelation 20:11, ". . . the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. . . ." Which is one of the events.
     
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  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, Isaiah 66:24, ". . . and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: . . ." Of which Jesus spoke, Matthew 13:50, " . . . into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. . . ." Of the dead bodies of the dead souls.
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    He makes a case for it speaking of the gospel going worldwide now, not at the end of the world.
     
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  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.[ Revelation 22:2 ]


    This verse has always given me fits. If this is the eternal state, why do the nations need healing? That sermon does seem to put it in its proper perspective. :Thumbsup

    I’ve still much to learn about postmill, but it’s gaining steam with me. Pastor Wilson does tie those passages together in a tidy neat bow. But I will re-listen to it plus read those passages again. Thanks for posting it, @Iconoclast. :Thumbsup:Thumbsup:Thumbsup
     
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  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Wow. Just wow!


     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Lol, no doubt John Owen had never heard the term 'Preterist'.

    The saints are now new creatures in the new heaven and new earth of the new covenant where 'neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature'.

    To the disobedient Jews who thought the old was good:

    19
    And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26

    23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28
     
    #17 kyredneck, Aug 16, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2021
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Those Covenant curses came upon them to the uttermost....mostly in the first century with what Lk 21:22called these be the days of vengenance;
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
     
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  19. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Another wow sermon.


     
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  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    John Owen has a rather profound sermon about which Brother Durbin quoted some from a writing of his…

    Dr. John Owen On
    The "New Heavens and Earth"
    (2 Peter 3:13)


    • The apostle makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was destroyed, but only men that liveth on the earth; and the apostle tells us (ver. 7) of the heaven and earth that were then, and were destroyed by water, distinct from the heavens and the earth that were now, and were to be consumed by fire; and yet as to the visible fabric of heaven and earth they were the same both before the flood and in the apostle's time, and continue so to this day; when yet it is certain that the heavens and earth, whereof he spake, were to be destroyed and consumed by fire in that generation. We must, then, for the clearing of our foundation a little, consider what the apostle intends by the heavens and the earth in these two places.

      ' 1. It is certain that what the apostle intends by the world, with its heaven, and earth (vers. 5, 6), which was destroyed ; the same, or some-what of that kind, he intends by the heavens and the earth that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire (ver. 7) ; otherwise there would be no coherence in the apostle's discourse, nor any kind of argument, but a mere fallacy of words.

      ' 2. It is certain that by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world; and therefore the destruction intimated to succeed by fire is not of the substance of the heavens and the earth, which shall not be consumed until the last day, but of person or men living in the world.

      '3. Then we must consider in what sense men living in the world are said to be the world, and the heavens and earth of it. I shall only insist on one instance to this purpose among many that may be produced: Isa. li. 15, 16. The time when the work here mentioned, of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God was when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state; then He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And since it is that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in that languaue which seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isa. xxxiv. 4, which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like also is affirmed of the Roman Empire (Rev. vi. 14), which the Jews constantly affirm to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Saviour Christ's prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. xxiv.) He sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.

      ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-

      '(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of tile Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them.

      '(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28.

      ' This being the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth continued in them.

      'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.

      'There is no outward constitution nor frame of things in government or nations, but it is subject to a dissolution, and may receive it, and that in a way of judgment. If any might plead exemption, that, on many accounts, of which the apostle was discoursing in prophetical terms (for it was not yet time to speak it openly to all) might interpose for its share.'*



      John Owen On the New Heaven and New Earth-Preterism, new heaven and new earth, and eschatology and Preterist soteriology; Preterism and Preterist eschatology, rapture and prophecy from a preterist perspective
     
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