New Jerusalem?

That's the RAPTURE, Bob. We gotta "get outta Dodge" so Christ can bring in the lost sheep of "Israel and the House of Judah."

Just curious, Bob. When He 'came again' (presumably 70 AD), did He take anyone to be where He is? Or are you saying that Stephen, the crucified thief, the apostle James, etal. couldn't go to heaven until 70 AD? Does He come to receive each of us when we die since 70 AD?

"Grafted in" right when they were being "cut out" in unbelief, Bob. Does that fufill God's promise? Did He promise that this "heart of flesh" would cause their unbelief?

As you look at Israel today, is God's law written in their hearts yet? I think the theology you are looking for in "replacement theology," not the "inclusion theology" you say you believe. :laugh:

Me? I'm satisfied by scripture that says that we receive a spiritual new covenant kingdom that exists now in heaven but when Christ does come again, Israel will receive a physical new covenant kingdom (called MK) that will exist here on earth.

skypair

 

First of all, he sends the angels to get our souls when we die.

No, Jesus did not come back in 70 AD, when He arose from the grave, many of the bodies of the saints arose with Him and went into that Holy City.

He said a "portion" of them were cutoff for unbelief. You are trying to cutoff the whole household of Israel. Scripture does not say, He cut off all of Israel. It does say, "all of Israel are not Israel", it does say though Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved. It does say, we were grafted in to the Good Olive Tree and its branches, and that we are of the wild Olive tree.

Yes, His Laws are in our hearts and minds NOW! Also, in the believing part of Israel, that was not broken off until the fullness of the Gentiles, which has already come for Paul is the one who mentioned the "fullnes of the Gentiles" and Paul is the one who said that He, in his day, might be able to save some of them, showing that Paul believed the "fullness of the Gentiles" had come.

You just make up your own little city, where they will be making animal sacrifices and are happy as a coon.

BBob,

 

I have to disagree with BBob on one point. Jesus DID come in 70 AD, in judgement against Israel. That's what the image of Jesus coming in the clouds was all about. This was an "in time" judgement, not an "end time" event. God judged Israel in 70 AD just as He had previously judged Israel and Judah by Assyria and Babylon, and just as He (probably) also judged Germany and Japan in WW II and other countries throughout history.

We are still looking forward to Jesus coming at the end of time when we get our new bodies, etc.

 

He may have came in this sense, but it was not His coming with the voice of the arch angel and trump of God to get His children. Jesus came in many forms, since the beginning of time. He was even in the church in the wilderness in Acts;

"Repent, or else I will come unto thee quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." A. D. 70 may have been a providential judgment of the Lord too.

He may of intervened in 70 AD, I don't know. It was not Him saying, "I will come again and receive you unto myself".

BBob,

I turned 69 yesterday, man am I getting old. Just think my next birthday, I will be 70!!!

 

So Christ promised He would come and receive the apostles to Himself in John 14:1-4 but He never did and, according to you, never will? That certainly sounds like somewhat of a "glitch" in your theology, doesn't it? :laugh:

The "holy city" of Jerusalem where many saw and recognized them, right? Mt 27:52-53 is a scene on the earth as all the verses surrounding attest. And Jesus had just died. He wasn't going anywhere but to the tomb for 3 days and nights. Did He receive them there??

And don't you think that if He is going to "prepare a place" anywhere, it's gonna take some time after leaving here and "going there" Himself first in order to prepare that place?? Bob, I don't see anything in your theology but that Jesus told the apostles a "pack of lies" in John 14:1-4.

Don't dispair, Bob. I am absolutely fascinated with the "yarn" you're "spinning." Keep going, please.

We've done this Rom 11:15-26 dance before. Perhaps we should read just a little farther in order to clear this dispute up. "... then shall all Israel be saved. ... For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Rom 11:26-30. What does Paul say of this "Israel" that YOU say is already come into the new covenant?

1) GOD HAS NOT YET MADE THE COVENANT WITH THEM THAT TAKES AWAY THEIR SINS (THE NEW COVENANT)!

2) THEY ARE OUR ENEMIES!

3) WE HAVE OBTAINED MERCY BECAUSE THEY STILL DON'T BELIEVE!

The ONLY way to resolve these issues is A) Christ comes to rapture the apostles and church and B) brings "Israel and the house of Judah" into the new covenant.

That's real cute, Bob, since I see it in detail and in physical terms described in scripture.

skypair

 

I agree.

Hey, I'm "just" 55 and I hope I'm still as sharp as you are when I hit 69. congratulations!

 

Rom 9:6¶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 11:



1: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4: But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

You think these people were not Israel?

Isa 45:4For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.



The end is not here yet for him to fulfill His promise to the Apostles and us, to redeem our bodies.

You are just completely out on a limb, when you think God changed His mind and made the covenant with the Gentiles, instead of who the promise was too.

It says a portion was cutoff, the greater part was not cutoff, the "elect" for sure. That was what we were "grafted" in to. If they are not there, then we had nothing to be grafted in to. So, the scripture is untrue, according to you.

Rom 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

You would have to believe the "elect" were cutoff also, if you believe all of Israel were cutoff!

When the saints were resurrected at His resurrection and went in to that Holy City. It sure was not natural Jerusalem. They are in Heaven.

BBob,

 

Happy belated B-day, BB!

 

Thanks Web.............

BBob,

 

I agree. I also like how everyone seems to be avoiding this Revelation 21 passage.

 

Curious...

We know what Jerusalem is, and this "old Jerusalem" is not allegory for people...why would we assume "New Jerusalem" is?

I have an "old car". It has 4 wheels, a windshield, steering wheel, et.
Why would I assume a "new car" would not consist of the same things? I would not say a "new car" consisted of salespeople!

Folks, these phrases are used for our benefit...so we can understand exactly what "New Jerusalem" is...a city, consisting of roads, buildings, culture, and a ruler,...praise God, a Theocracy!

 

Not according to God, He that overcometh, him will I make a pillar in the temple of the City of my God, New Jerusalem, Who is the "bride" the Lamb's wife. Jesus is married to the church, not "old Jerusalem", with new wheels.......... Its foundation will not be rocks and mortar, its walls will not be stone, its gates will not be of wood, its temple will not be forty and six years in building.

Jesus said: Ye are a "City" set on a hill, that cannot be hid.

BBob,

 

BB, that's allegory.

 

My friend how do you know that???? When John was shown the city, what did he see???

Even Romans says to not be married to another, saving Christ.

BBob,

 

...because human being are not "cities".

Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and characters are often personifications of abstract ideas as charity, greed, or envy.
Thus an allegory is a story with two meanings, a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning.

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/lit_terms/allegory.html

 

We are the city of God, with God and the Lamb the temple therein, and the light thereof, when all is finished. We are a city, not made with hands. We are the "pillars" of that City.

Looking at it to natural Web.

BBob,

 

...which is an allegory :laugh:

 

I look it as the real thing Web, and where I will be for eternity.

Rev. 21

9: And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10: And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11: Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12: And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15: And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16: And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17: And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18: And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19: And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20: The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21: And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22: And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23: And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24: And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25: And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26: And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

BBob,

 

If by fleshly you mean corruptible, no. If you mean physical, most definately. How Jesus' body was after resurrection will be how ours are.