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New Jerusalem?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Jul 12, 2008.

  1. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Bro web,

    To me, this is what I think tears down the natural kingdom that those who ascribe to the MK theology hold to come true. Jesus plainly told them the ONLY WAY to worship God is in SPIRIT and in truth. God is a SPIRIT and seeketh such to worship Him in SPIRIT and in truth. Apostle Paul also plainly stated that in the FLESH dwelleth no good things, for when I do good, evil is present. We are born again spiritually here on earth, because the flesh is corruptible. We are born of an incorruptible seed, by the word of God. Jesus was able to walk through walls after He had died on the cross. If it were to be a natural kingdom, why does our body stay here on earth when we die? When we die, our soul goes back to God who gave it, and our flesh returns to the earth....from the dust thou art, and dust thou shalt return. Our flesh will receive the "change" in the ground, when Jesus comes and we will be given a GLORIFIED body that will not be fleshly. No "natual" flesh shall enter into heaven . This is the way I see it.

    Willis
     
    #41 convicted1, Jul 16, 2008
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  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I think what convicted is saying is that we will not have a natural body of flesh and yes, we will have a body like Jesus.

    As Job said, yet in my flesh shall I see God. But not natural flesh.

    BBob,

    nite................:sleeping_2:
     
    #42 Brother Bob, Jul 17, 2008
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  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Bro Bob,

    That's EXACTLY the point I was trying to make....thanks again for helping me with my shortcomings.

    What I am trying to say is this (Please God help me to get this straight!!): When we are born again, the "inner man" is the one which gets saved. There will be a struggle between the Inner and Outer man until we die, or whenever Jesus comes to takes us home to glory(whichever comes first). The "change" in our "natural" body doesn't take place the moment we are saved, but when we are to be received into glory(at the moment we come out of the grave, IOW). We will then get a Spiritual flesh body at that time. We will have a body like Jesus, for the bible says it is not yet known what we will be like, but we will be in His likeness(me paraphrasing some scriptures). I hope I have made this clear enough.

    Now, it's time to get back to work![​IMG]

    Edited: It's just what Jesus told Nicodemus when Nicodemus asked how can I go back into my mother's womb to be born again? Jesus told him "that which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of Spirit, is Spirit.
     
    #43 convicted1, Jul 17, 2008
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  4. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    They are ... and not true. And Rom 11:32 says "For God hath concluded them all [all believing OT Israel] in unbelief [as broken branches], that he might have mercy upon all [when He comes again!]." So basically, you have "read" some unbelieving Israel "into" the olive tree that aren't there. This epistle is post-Pentecost, Bob, and God STILL includes them ALL in unbelief. Can you get it through your head NOW that God is going to graft them back in (as is the theme of the passage) and it will be blessings to the world??!!

    Right! :thumbs: So where do you come by this "rapture" at Christ's death?

    You're the one who says God has cast away His people (all but a remnant). Rom 11:2 There is only a REMNANT of believers right now, Bob, 11:5. But God means to bring them ALL in, 11:26.

    "...rather through their fall salvation [COVENANT] is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." 11:11 See where the Gentiles are brought into the new covenant before them, now? "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" Paul is right here prophesying their "fulness" -- their restoration into the new covenant LATER, 11:12.

    Read it again, Bob -- we're grafted into the "root and lump" ("religious heritage"), not into the "remnant branches." And the "root and lump" ARE "not there." They are folks like Abraham, Isaac,... We partake, not of the branches, but of the "root and fatness of the olive tree" ("religious heritage").

    No sir, I wouldn't. I would believe that, them being the root and stem, they are our spiritual support and will appear in heaven and in New Earth with us. Furthermore, when we are cut out/raptured, they will come back in the MK and be grafted back into their own religious heritage + Jesus.

    So you lift that verse out of context and use it to substantiate your "private interpretation." Great! There will be no way for me to convince you of the truth, I guess. :tear:

    skypair
     
    #44 skypair, Jul 17, 2008
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  5. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Yes. You got a problem with that? :laugh:

    Reading on down to your later posts, I agree we will be "all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye" (1Cor 15:52) into our new bodies fitted for heaven. I believe Paul calls them bodies of "celestial glory." However, I believe that on this earth, the saved receive bodies of "terrestrial glory." That is, quickened by the Holy Spirit to learn and practice living in those perfect bodies that we will receive at the rapture.

    Believe me, the rapture and receiving a body in heaven are going to leave BBob saying to himself, "What am I doing here?!" :laugh:


    skypair
     
    #45 skypair, Jul 17, 2008
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  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You are the one who ignores the promise of God to Israel, when the Messiah comes. You don't believe the Messiah has come, same as the Pharasees.

    BBob,
     
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Wonder why Jesus went away to prepare a place for us, when you say its going to be here. Looks like He would be down here with a hammer and a bunch of nails, working away.

    Everyone has a terrestrial body now, which is a natural body.

    1 a: of or relating to the earth or its inhabitants

    BBob,
     
    #47 Brother Bob, Jul 17, 2008
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  8. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Tonight, do me a favor. Look up in the sky and consider whether all those stars up there are physical or spiritual. :laugh: Consider whether a perfect, physical kingdom might be "under constructin" up there -- one that would require us to have CELESTIAL bodies to go to. Then consider what "we all must be changed" means in 1Cor 15:52.

    So here's the "drill" -- the "gouge" as pilot's call it: We go there for 7 years while Israel discovers the "Lamb" of the Revelation. Then we come back with Christ, Rev 19, to put Christ's enemies under His feet thus restoring the kingdom He was ready to claim at His first advent. Then Satan is given one last "fling" whereupon the rest of the saints are raptured out and the old earth "melted with a fervent heat."

    ...

    Granted, we wouldn't need new bodies to go to your spiritual NJ. There would really be no point in "the change" to go to yours, would there?

    You're avoiding one of the adjectives, Bobby -- "terrestrial GLORY."

    skypair
     
  9. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Quite simple, Bob -- they believed in/conformed with the NEW religious system. They were neither a) "all Israel" nor b) a "remnant" of all the tribes (as the 144,000 will be). They were part of a "nation that is no nation and a people that is no people" which God had told the Jews would emerge in His plan.

    That doesn't conform with 1Thes 4:16-17 -- the "rapture" -- now does it, Bob.

    OK, what covenant was Paul talking about when he said "covenant when He shall take away their sins?"

    And IGNORED the part where it says the ALL are included in unbelief -- that is, did not know of or didn't believe in the NEW religious system called Christianity.

    That's just it, Bob --- Christ never came to most of them! Did Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. see Christ? What they need in order to be "grafted in" is to see and believe on Christ/Messiah -- and they will in the MK.

    You, Bob, are having a huge problem with this "religious system" thing whereby the whole of Judaism was interrupted. Imagine the "root and stem" making blood sacrifices because THERE WAS NO CHRIST. Now imagine that just as the branches were starting to grow in, those sacrifices are DONE AWAY WITH IN CHRIST. Now imagine that at some future time, the wild branches of Christianity and NO sacrifices are taken out (raptured, Rom 11:24) and the natural branches, ALL ISRAEL, of the sacrificial system are restored (trib and MK). THAT is what will be blessing to the world!

    skypair
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

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    Revelation was a vision John saw while on the Isle of Patmos... Many years after the Church started in that upper room on Pentacost.

    The Church was already established before John's vision of the New Jerusalem.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I agree they won't be "flesh" which is corruptible. The Bible says we will have spiritual bodies...BUT...Jesus' body was able to eat, walk, be clung to and touched. They are most definately physical in nature, too. The greek for flesh is simply "meat". Meat decays...our resurrected bodies won't.
     
    #51 webdog, Jul 17, 2008
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  12. standingfirminChrist

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    You are correct, webdog. Jesus' body was indeed physical. Scripture tells us it was 'flesh and bone." The blood was absent! He had shed it all on the cross for mankind.

    Scripture declares one day 'we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."

    We will have physical bodies, and yes, I do believe they will be as Christ's resurrected body... flesh and bone. An incorruptible flesh... a glorified flesh.
     
  13. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    Now those are shouting words... :godisgood: :jesus: :thumbs:

    i am assuming you meant not an incorruptible flesh...
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Nope. Meant we will have an incorruptible flesh like Christ's.
     
  15. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Good point, sfiC. :thumbs:

    skypair
     
  16. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    BBob,

    You musta got real busy so this is the question that begs to be answered by your theology:
    See, this suggests another covenant -- yet FUTURE -- in which God takes away the sins of the "Israel" that Paul says "will all be saved" but aren't saved at the time of his writing. Cause according to Paul's next verse (11:28) they are STILL "enemies for the gospel's sake" ... so obviously the "Deliverer" hasn't taken away their sins under that covenant yet.

    skypair
     
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

    Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Oh, but those who received Him, including the Apostles and many others were saved.

    Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own,(Israel) and his own received him not.

    Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him,(Israel) to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:(Israel)

    BBob,
     
    #57 Brother Bob, Jul 18, 2008
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  18. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    What does this have to do with New Jerusalem being the bride and the church being the bride???

    We haven't been resurrected as of yet either and John wrote about it. YOu want me to quote anymore??

    BBob,:BangHead:
     
  19. Dr. L.T. Ketchum

    Dr. L.T. Ketchum New Member

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    The New Heaven is the New Earth

    [FONT=&quot]Why will there be no more sea in the new earth?[/FONT]


    Leon Morris in his commentary on Revelation; Tyndale New Testament Commentaries published by Eerdman’s makes the following statement about this:

    Although this is true, it is definitely spiritualizing the text. The intent is that there will be no large bodies of water that will separate one nation from another. In that sense, there will be no separate nations on earth. We all will be one people (21:3), united by faith and part of the New Creation.

    The next event after the White throne Judgment will be the creation of a new Heaven and New Earth. The previous heaven and earth has been consumed by the judgment fire of God. The New Heaven\Earth will not be a re-creation of the old. It will be “new” (kainos, kahee-nos') in kind. The details of this new, but different Heaven\Earth are given in Revelation chapters 21 and 22.
    According to Revelation 21:3, what makes Heaven Heaven? Heaven is Heaven because God dwells there. Everything else is just extensions and blessings of His presence. The fullness of the Godhead will dwell in the glorified Body of Jesus Christ. Notice that the Godhead will be unified in Christ. This proves that God is not three individual Gods (Tri-theism), but one God in three parts (personages). He is a Trinity. In the New Heaven (when we see God) we will see Him in the Person of Jesus Christ “the Lamb.”
    Why does John describe the New Jerusalem as a bride? This is revealed in Revelation 21:9-10:

    This refers to the Church, which will hold an eternally exalted position in the New Creation. She is the Lamb’s wife now (21:9), but she remains “adorned for her husband . . . as a bride.” I believe the intent is to show a contrast between the great “whore” of Apostasy of Revelation 17 and the true Church of Christ. Notice the similarities in the introduction to these two visions:

    Centrally, that which differentiates these two (the New Jerusalem from the New Babylon) is that the New Jerusalem is “adorned” with the “glory of God” (Rev. 21:11). Babylon never was anything more than a gaudy, painted whore with a golden cup in her hand collecting her harlot’s fare from the corruption of the lives of those she deceived and manipulated into her bed of apostasy.

    What is the significance of the three uses of the statement, “it is done”? There are three verses in Scripture that state, “It is done” or “it is finished.” Each relate to a different aspect of God’s judicial program. The first is found in John 19:30.

    This refers to the payment of the sin penalty in the body of Jesus Christ, which propitiated God and justified and reconciled believers.

    The second use of this term is Revelation 16:17.
    This refers to the final judgment of the tribulation period and the return of Jesus Christ to establish His Kingdom on earth. The third use is in Revelation 21:6.

    This refers to the final judgment of the old creation in destruction by fire. Time itself is now ended as a parenthesis in eternity. Christ was the beginning (Author) of that creation and He will be its Consummator.
    What will the New Heaven be like? This is detailed in Revelation 21:4:

    God explains heaven from the perspective of the lives we presently live (this is the only perspective we can understand it from in that it is the only point of reference that we can relate to). Therefore, He explains it from the negative in the things that will be absent in Heaven, but are part of the curse in this life. There will be no more tears, no more death, no more sorrow, no more crying, no more pain. The summation of all this is that there is no more curse.
     
  20. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Uh-oh. BUSTED!!! :tonofbricks:

    Paul said that they would receive the covenant LATER ! Not even by the time he had penned these words had they received this covenant (11:27)!!!! When he penned these words, "Israel," who was to receive a covenant to "take away their sins" (11:27), was still an enemy on account of the gospel. Rom 11:28. "Comprende', senor?? :laugh: Got another guess?? :laugh:

    Bobby, we're not talking about the church here, bro. We're talking in Rom 11 about RELIGIOUS access to God. The old covenant was "cut off" -- the new covenant was kept. Concentrate! It's the JEWS in view in Rom 11. "Israelites" like Paul, Rom 11:1. God's original people, 11:2.

    skypair
     
    #60 skypair, Jul 18, 2008
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