News: ACLU...America's Taliban?

*sigh*

 

I don't endorse the ACLU because of their position on abortion, as I am prolife, and their attack on Christian symbols in public places. However, there are cases they have taken, where I felt they were on the right side of the issue. Their opposition to the patriot act, which I to oppose on the basis that the patriot act is really an attack on our liberties and individual rights. I agree with their opposition of the government detaining folks unjustly. Unfortunately there are so called Christian groups and so called Christian leaders, though in the Bible, Believers are called to be servants, that are backing the patriot act, and this is dangerous as the patriot act is really a threat to our liberties and the war on terror is phony and really a war on our individual rights and liberties. 2nd Cor. 3:17 where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.

[ January 09, 2003, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Jameslef ]

 

I believe there is a special spot in hell for the aclu, because they have fought so hard against the Christians. I agree it's time something was done about this radical group. Rick Sr.

 

They don't fight against Christians. They fight FOR the separation of church and state, which includes the rights of Christians and non-Christians. This country has done so much to establish Christianity without making it the official religion outright . . .

But still, they have actually taken cases from Christians who have been discriminated against . . . if I can dig up the links I posted on a similar thread a few months ago, I'll post them here.

Just lovely, though, to invoke the Taliban to incite jingoistic lunacy from the masses. What a ludicrous comparison.

 

Kelly,

The Taliban, err pardon me, ACLU is not the harmless freedom loving organization you make it out to be. Thier hatred towards Christianity and God is plain to see even thought they hide it behind seperation of church and state. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Ask yourself, why are they so interested in fighting for "seperation of church and state" anyway? Could it be they hate God so much they'll do anything to avoid even seeing a cross, the 10 commandments, or any other reference to God?

I'm a bit woried about you Kelly. Nothing personal I assure you, but from reading your posts so far, you've defended Planned Parenthood and now the ACLU. Any clear minded Christian can see that such institutions fly in the face of God and his word. They are evil to the core, but like all other sin, they appear harmless and ok. Thats the way satan decieves us. He disguises sin as something good and gradually coaxes us to accept it.

http://www.christianarsenal.com/conttopic/ContTopics002.htm

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/008/11.14.html

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/acluEnemy.htm

[ January 09, 2003, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: AdoptedByGod ]

 

I'll defend the ACLU much more readily than I will Planned Parenthood. Or maybe that's worse. I'm not really sure.

I may just be so foggy headed that I don't see it, but I've never experienced or learned any Christian hatred from my ACLU brethren and sistren. I see a dedication to civil liberties that includes freedom from state sponsored religion and expressions of religious bias.

I would wager that were, say, Buddhism, the most socially popular and most institutionally recognized religion in this country and states and localities wanted to post the 10 Pillars of Tibetan Buddhism, the ACLU would fight just as hard to prevent such an establishment. Or if someone wanted to insert Diana or Istarte's name into the Pledge of Allegiance.

We are so quick to say the ACLU targets Christians and Christianity, yet we conveniently leave out that Christianity is the most visible religion in this country, and there are certainly more state-sponsored displays of Christian symbols and verbiage and homage than there are of other religious stuff. By the numbers alone, it stands to reason that there would be more cases against Christian symbols and language than that of other religions. How often does a state legislature create bills to post the Wiccan Rede in schools?

None of those things are problems in and of themselves. There are several cases in which the ACLU has brought suit on the behalf of Christians for not being permitted to wear crosses or carry Bibles to school. The 10 Commandments aren't a problem either. I hardly think you'd see the ACLU bring a case against you if you wanted to paint your house with them. It's the posting of them in public schools and state buildings that creates a problem - -to do so is state-sanctioning of one (okay, two) religions.

The stance - when it comes to state representation is that of "all or nothing," not "everything except Christianity." And most of the issues do involve state establishment. I make no excuses or apologies for supporting the ACLU's opposition to Judeo-Christian establishment in this country.

I'm surprised I should need to.

I'm further surprised that clear and well thought out arguments are blanketly condemned as of the devil. Is there no possible way that a different opinion may actually be correct? This question has to do with a greater pattern I'm seeing all over the place. The mere fact that one could see virtue in something others regard as evil, regardless of any reasoning given, is used to prove, rather conclusively, the dissenter's sin or deception. See the music forum if you need evidence of what I'm talking about. Or maybe rsr can come in and post his quote that I liked from the "Paisley" thread.

 

It seems the ACLU has no problem with public schools teaching Islam. I wonder what would happen if they tried that with Christianity?

CBN.com - Parents and educators in the state of California appear to be on a collision course. A growing number of parents across the "Golden State" are at odds with state and local officials over a three-week study of Islam that is required curriculum for all 7th grade public school children.

Across the Centuries is a world history textbook, published by Houghton-Mifflin. Chapters three and four outline the origins and early growth of Islam, including a detailed account of the life of Muhammad.

Also covered in great detail are: the Qur’an, believed by Muslims to be God's revelations to Muhammad; the Sunna, a book of Islam's guiding rules; and the Five Pillars of Faith.

But instead of simply providing a historical presentation of the roots and rise of Islam, some Muslim beliefs seem to be presented as fact rather than as matters of faith.

Page 62 contains the following passage: "The Qur'an is the final revelation, just as Muhammad is the final prophet."

On page 60, students read: "The message revealed through him was the same basic message that had been brought by Abraham, Moses, and Jesus…"

Chapter review questions ask students to: "Assume you are a Muslim soldier on your way to conquer Syria," as well as, "…leave your home in Alexandria on a pilgrimmage to Mecca."

But what is even more alarming to some parents is the curriculum being used along with Across the Centuries.

Liz Lemings' son Joseph is a seventh-grader in the Byron Union School District. While she was willing to overlook the textbook's shortcomings, she was astonished by the accompanying study materials.

"Shocked. I was just shocked. And then I asked him, ‘What of this did you do?’ And he told me that he adopted a Muslim name and that he had to wear it around his neck ," she explained.

Even as a teacher in the very same school, Liz became aware of the detailed nature of the curriculum only when Joseph was studying for a test.

"I knew that they had a list of words that they had to learn for vocabulary because there were 40 of them, and it caused quite a lot of concern about trying to memorize all those terms and phrases and names of people. But I thought that was just part of the regular course within the textbook. I didn't realize that they had this game they were playing where they had to adopt a name and actually take on a position of being a Muslim," she said.

Lemings and other California parents say they believe the presentation of Islam is far more detailed than the way other religions are taught, including Christianity.

"I guess I'm looking for the same representation of that religion as I would for Christianity, for Judaism, for any…for Buddhism. I wouldn't expect there to be something that would teach the children what that religion did and how to practice it. I wouldn't expect that," she said.

Regarding the Islam simulation, the website says students will "learn about the Islamic Five Pillars of Faith and Mohammed."

Details of the Christendom simulation, which is based in medieval times, make no reference to the four Gospels, or even Jesus Christ.

This leads many to question whether this material is "engaging" students in the learning process, or indoctrinating them into Islam.

In fact, Joseph said the curriculum made him feel uncomfortable. "Having to know verses and proverbs, I didn't like having to know that stuff," he said.

In another aspect of the Islamic curriculum, the actual student guide tells students: "From the beginning, you and your classmates will become Muslims."

The object of the 10 to 15-day simulation is to be the first group to complete a pilgrimmage to Mecca. Students pretend to travel in caravans, engage in trade, dress up, pick a Muslim name, and even stage their own jihad as part of a dice game.

The curriculum also states: "One important Phase 3 activity is learning Islam's Five Pillars of Faith by imitating a requirement of each pillar."

That means, at some point in the simulation, students could be asked to imitate a Muslim profession of faith, Muslim prayer, the giving of alms, a Ramadan fast and/or a pilgrimmage to Mecca.

CBN News spoke to Byron Union School Superintendent Peggy Green about the controversy. She declined our request for an interview, but she did provide a copy of the school board's policy on "opting out" of curricula which parents or students find offensive. And, even though many parents may not be aware of it, if parents choose, she says teachers will issue alternative assignments.

 

Actually, they use their understanding of the Bill of Rights (the first ten amendments to the Constitution of the United States) as their guiding document to uphold these rights for all Americans. What some understand as an attack on Christians and Christian symbols is essentially a battle to maintain the wall of separation of church and state and remove unconstitutional situations where church and state is mixed.

Baptists often side with the ACLU in religious liberty cases (except for the recent so-call “Ethics and Religious Liberty” department of the Southern Baptist Convention that began after the SBC defunded the Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs) because Baptists have been the primary proponents of separation of church and state in North America for over 375 years. Roger Williams, a Baptist at the time, established the colony of Rhode Island in 1636 that established a government that first separated church and state. This new pattern of government finally broke the long tradition of the majority religionists or denomination taking unfair advantage or persecuting the minority religionists.

They don’t have to be destroyed, but in most cases they should be removed.

Actually they would not. The Taliban demanded that everyone become exactly as they are or face the consequences – including torture and death. The ACLU wants the government to stay out of the religious life of the nation and the religious groups not to have control of the government – except through the constitutionally-established channels of citizens voting and individuals running for public office.

It may make good rhetoric to call the ACLU the “Taliban”, but the notion is ridiculous for anyone who cares to acquaint themselves with the facts.

Some would and some wouldn’t. The decision to separate church and state with the First Amendment was not a unanimous decision. Foes of church and state separation can easily find “quotes from founding fathers” to make their historically-inaccurate case that “separation of church and state” is a “myth” (as David Barton has so successfully done), but careful research reveals a far different story.

What sort of hate crime is this person suggesting?

It is pretty obvious that this guy doesn’t have much of a point other than getting people stirred up. He’s using everyone from the Taliban to Hitler’s brownshirts (you can’t really have a passionate plea without referencing Hitler ) to make guilt-by-association charges against the ACLU.

While I do not agree with all the stands of the ACLU, I do respect their work. As far as religious liberty organizations go, I like (and support) the Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs and Americans United For Separation of Church and State.

 

It seems the ACLU has no problem with public schools teaching Islam. I wonder what would happen if they tried that with Christianity? </font>[/QUOTE]Teaching about religion including Christianity and Islam is constitutionally acceptable. (I believe that is also the ACLU’s position.) Promoting a religion or urging students to participate in the religion is unconstitutional.

For a more balanced perspective than CBN, check out this snopes.com link:

http://www.snopes.com/religion/islam.htm

 

Amen and Amen!

 

Nonsense!

Bibles are allowed in schools. You will find Bibles in school libraries and students can carry their Bibles to school. The Ten Commandments are found in the Bible, so they are certainly allowed in school. As far as posting the Ten Commandments on the wall, schools are not allowed to post them (except as part of a coursework regarding the nature of Judaism or Christianity), but they are not banned from schools.

It would have to be true first...

Evolution is not normally classified as a religion because it is allegedly based on science. (I am not convinced by either atheistic evolutionists or so-called "creation scientists".)

The presence of a copies of the Qur'an or the Bible do not mean that a religion is being taught.

I suspect you are interpreting the ACLU through your biases.

 

What do you suggest?

 

Perhaps the most vivid and enduring visual memory of Taliban rule in Afghanistan is the image of the Islamic extremists blowing up ancient Buddhist statues in Bamiyan just a few months before they were routed from power by U.S. forces.

Why should I care whether one bunch of idolators wrecks another bunch of idolators' idols?

As analogies intended to rouse Christians' passions go, this one is pretty lame.

 

I wonder if the ACLU will be standing in line to represent these kids who have clearly been deprived of their civil liberties?

THE CASE OF THE OFFENSIVE CANDY CANES
Seven high school students in Westfield, Mass., have been suspended solely for passing out candy canes containing religious messages.

Here's the background on this case: In December, the student members of the L.I.F.E. Bible Club decided to pass out candy canes to their fellow students. The candy had attached messages contained Scripture verses and told the story of a candy cane maker who wanted to invent a candy that was a witness to Christ. The distribution of the candy and the attached literature was to occur one day prior to the Christmas break on December 19.

Members of the Bible Club decided to ask their principal for permission to distribute the candy canes during non-class time. The principal refused the request, saying that the Christian message contained in the literature may be "offensive" to other students. He then consulted with the school superintendent who agreed that other students might be offended by the Christian message. The request was denied.

The students had a tough call to make. They believe that God has called them to share the Gospel message with their classmates. Should they abide by the school's decision or follow through with what they see as a greater calling?

The students determined that they would go ahead and distribute the small gifts, handing out about 450 candy canes to fellow students during non-class time.

After these seven students returned from Christmas break on January 2, they were summoned to the principal's office and told that they would be suspended for their actions.

The courageous young people now stand at a crossroads that could impact the rest of their lives. For example, senior Sharon Sitler, a member of the National Honor Society, is currently in the process of applying to several colleges and universities for admission and scholarships. She faces the prospect of being removed from the National Honor Society because of the school's disciplinary actions against her which could place her at a disadvantage when she competes for admission and scholarships.

Another student, Paul Sitler, is currently a freshman at Westfield High School. He has aspirations to attend the United States Air Force Academy upon graduation. Again, the disciplinary action taken against him may result in his disqualification from any military academy.

Mathew Staver, founder and general counsel at the Orlando, Fla.-based Liberty Counsel, has filed a federal lawsuit against the Westfield Public Schools, the superintendent and principal. The lawsuit requests that the policy and actions of the school district and officials be declared unconstitutional and that the suspensions be immediately removed from the files.

Mr. Staver, who is representing these students, says this case underscores several important principles.

"These students faced a dilemma in which they had to make a decision whether to compromise their Christian beliefs by remaining silent or to stand up for Christ and face the consequences," he said. "These courageous students chose to do what was right rather than what was expedient."

I agree that this case reveals the blatant hostility by school officials toward the Christian message and exposes the ignorance of these officials - who are representative of educrats across the country - regarding the constitutional rights of religious students.

Staver, who has represented dozens of students in similar cases, notes that as far back as 1969, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that public school students do not shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse gate. Why should they? These students are citizens under the Constitution and are protected by the First Amendment right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

The fact is, students have the right to free speech in the form of verbal or written expression during non-instructional class time. And yes, students have just as much right to speak on religious topics as they do on secular topics - no matter what the ACLU might propagate. Quite simply, school officials may not censor religious or Christian messages solely because another person might be "offended."

I thank God for every one of these young people. They are to be admired.

 

I don't know anything about the ACLU's involvement (or lack thereof, since it seems the students already have legal counsel), but from the information in the story, I agree that their rights were violated.

Unfortunately, many people don't know what is and is not legal, and the system is rife with ignorant school officials like this principal and superintendant.

The first of the links I've provided below is along the lines of the candy cane case. I have to ask - are you suggesting that because they aren't on every case, the ACLU must be ignoring them somehow? I'm just trying to clarify, since you bring this case up in what seems an accusatory fashion.

ACLU Supports Right of Iowa Students to Distribute Christian Literature at School

ACLU Defends Church's Right to Run "Anti-Santa" Ads in Boston Subways

School Allows Religious Exemptions to Dress Code

ACLU of PA Files Discrimination Lawsuit Over Denial of Zoning Permit for African American Baptist Church

ACLU Asks Court to Halt Mississippi School's "Gang Symbol" Ban on Star of David Necklace

Prayer Protest Drowned Out at School

 

Double post, sorry.

Russ &lt;&gt;&lt;

[ January 10, 2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: new man ]