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Ninth and tenth plagues were one

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 12, 2015.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Kevin:

    The three days thick darkness was the ninth plague, it was not the Passover.
    You're just grasping at straws to try to prove your three whole day bone day theory.
    I have shown you that the "bone" day, the "selfsame" day, the "estem" day is one day not three.
    Believe what you want, I don't care. But you can not prove that the "estem" day was three whole days.
    Sure Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three while days, but that doesn't prove the "estem" day was three whole days.

    GE:

    To clear up [I think it is the second time I am telling you this] :
    YOU, Kevin McMillen, has <<shown>> me, GE, NOTHING of or about <<the "bone" day, the "selfsame" day, the "estem" day>>. You have not had the faintest clue that it existed until I, GE, showed you, Kevin McMillen, its existence in the Scriptures.
    But you are so given to argument you cannot live without it. You just want to show your superiority to everyone else. You’re so sick in your mind and psyche it’s a waste of time to further argue with you.
    Please enjoy your victory over me all by yourself… and friends if you have.

    Kevin:
    <<<The three days thick darkness was the ninth plague, it was not the Passover>>>

    GE:

    "There was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days : they saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days : but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.”

    It was no ordinary darkness; it could be felt. Godless men fear darkness more than anything. Would Pharaoh have called Moses after the plague was over? As soon as the darkness had begun, Pharaoh called Moses to get it ended.

    “Then Pharaoh called Moses, and said, Go serve your LORD… Moses answered Pharaoh, You must also… So the LORD hardened his heart and Pharaoh would not let them go. Pharaoh said to Moses, Get thee from me! And Moses said, You’re right; I will not see your face again.
    The LORD told Moses, Now I will bring AT ONCE an (other, last) plague upon Pharaoh and upon Egypt; after THAT, he will let you go… Speak NOW in the ears of the people… Exactly MIDNIGHT will I go out into the heart of Egypt and all the FIRSTBORN SHALL DIE…"

    These were Moses’ parting words to Pharaoh, 11:8, “And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger.”

    The ninth and tenth plagues came simultaneously and indistinguishable. Like in its “three days darkness” duration, DARKNESS AND DEATH struck on “the selfsame whole-day BONE-DAY” of the Passover of Yahweh.

     
  2. BernardJ

    BernardJ New Member
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    Your interpretation is at odds with the Biblical text. There are three days of tangible darkness (Ex. 10), then - presumably when the darkness lifts so that Moses can be located by the Egyptians - Moses is summoned to Pharoah who is willing to offer a partway concession, but Moses will not accept less than complete capitulation. Thereupon, God tells Moses that one more plague will come, the death of the firstborn (Ex. 11) - apparently Moses is still in the presence of Pharoah as part of that meeting after the three days of darkness. It appears (Ex. 12) that the preparation for this terrible plague of the death of the firstborn requires some days of preparation, and then it occurs. So it is very much a separate event from the three days of darkness.
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Exodus 10:27 begins with a paragraph starting symbol in my KJV. The next symbol appears in 12:18 where a rear-view summary of 10:27 to 12:17 begins; and another rear-view paragraph from 12:21; and a third one where it begins in 29 to 30, before the story of the passover really begins in 12:31. This part of history is also repeated as it were in three paragraphs, 12:31-36; 37-39; 40-42. The whole passover from 10:27 is then followed with a conclusive summary in 12:43-13:2.

    Scholars make out from this, what they call a chiasm. Several rather different but nevertheless basically similar chiasms have been distinguished. Their most obvious agreement is that these passages of the book of Exodus 'cover', the last two plagues.

    Anyone can go and read the plain and clear, unambiguous story and see for himself, that before the <<three days of tangible darkness>> began, before any darkness set in, what <lifted>, Pharaoh dismissed Moses, never mind <summoned> him; and that Moses left --what, stayed in <meeting>!. 11:28,29.
    Thereupon--before the darkness began--, <<God tells Moses that one more plague will come, the death of the firstborn (Ex. 11:1)>>, and that Pharaoh "afterwards", viz., after the tenth plague the death of the first born of the Egyptians, "will let you go".

    Clearly Moses was far from <<the presence of Pharoah>> and <<that meeting>> before the three days of darkness. The <<preparation for this terrible plague of the death of the firstborn>> <required> no delay on the part of God before it could <occur>. The pressure was upon the Egyptians to hasten it as is clear from simply reading the story.

    So what is <it> where you say, <<it is very much a separate event from the three days of darkness>>? <<that meeting after the three days of darkness>>? Moses said at the only 'meeting' between him and Pharaoh before the last two plagues fell, "Thou hast spoken well, I will see thy face again no more." <<After the three days of darkness>> the face of Pharaoh for the depths of the red Sea and its mud was buried deep never to be seen again until Judgment Day.
     
    #3 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Apr 11, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  4. BernardJ

    BernardJ New Member
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    The original 1611 edition of the KJV treated each separate verse as a distinct paragraph, and it wasn't until around 1880, when the Cambridge Paragraph Bible was published, that a KJV edition grouped the verses into coherent paragraphs. In the Massoretic Hebrew text, however, chapter 11:1 begins a new paragraph.

    I am not clear on the meaning of "chiasm" - the word does not appear in any of the dozen or so dictionary & lexicons in my collection. I simply have the text to work with, and the context suggests to me that that first Pharoah refuses Moses at the end of the days of darkness, and then God reveals to Moses the oncoming death of the firstborn, which will occur one or two (or three) days in the future, allowing the Hebrew slaves the time to daub blood on their doorways and so forth.

    Pharoah was given warning of only some of the plagues, and others were visited upon Egypt without warning. The death of the firstborn was of the latter category.
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    All right, my bad. sorry. Try 'chiasmus'.
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    “An adulterous generation” asked Jesus for a sign. Jesus answered no sign shall be given them than the “sign OF THE PROPHET, Jonas”.

    What, in one word, was Jonas the “PROPHET’S sign”? The Judgment of God. What was God’s Judgment upon Jonas? Jonas 2:1-11. “Out of the belly OF HELL cried I… Thou cast me into the DEEP… I am cast OUT OF THY SIGHT—YET WILL I LOOK again. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever… YET HAST THOU BROUGHT UP MY LIFE from corruption...”

    Which was “day”, and which was “night”? What is of importance here, is that PROPHECY concerning the PROPHET, Jesus Christ, was to be fulfilled. And that Prophecy was “concerning the CHRIST HOW that He had to SUFFER, had to be BURIED and had, “to RISE the third day according to the Scriptures”—the Passover-of-Yahweh-Scriptures!

    It was impossible for Jonas to distinguish whether it was daylight or night time “in the belly of the fish”, except that under God’s "billows and waves passing over" him, Jonas was given hope and faith in God’s Judgement AND Deliverance. He saw The Light from within the darkness in the depths of hell. Jonas was type of Jesus Christ—“sign” of the Passover of Yahweh, Jesus Christ our Great Deliverer who suffered, was crucified and died, and was buried, and the third day ROSE from the dead again.

    Therefore, for me, it makes perfect sense that Jesus, speaking to that generation of unbelievers, did not mean to distinguish between “three nights” and “three” daylight parts of “days”; but, meant “three days indeed three nights” indistinguishable— like the “three days and three nights” of Jonas’ experience, indistinguishable DARKNESS OF GOD’S JUDGMENT— like the “THICK, impenetrable, absolute, uninterrupted PAINFUL TO DEATH darkness: THREE DAYS” of “the Passover-JUDGMENT of Yahweh”.

    Read ‘kai’-“and”, ‘kai’-“or indeed”, and be assured Christ Jesus was “in the heart of the earth three days” for the Egyptian adulterous generation of unbelievers, DARKNESS; for the children of Israel as for the Son of Man the Son of God “even”, “DAYS-OF-LIGHT”— “three nights and three days” inextinguishable unstoppable “CLOUD OF LIGHT”, “…and the cloud was Christ”.
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Thank you. I now understand better, and see where I was not right, all the way. It seems though the most correct way lies between your view and mine.

    <<The context suggests>>... to me, That,
    after the 8th plague of locusts,
    "20the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the children of Israel go".
    "21Then said the LORD to Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven that there MAY BE darkness over the land of Egypt even darkness that may be felt 22And Moses stretched forth his hand towards heaven and there was / came / began a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt (that would last) three days: 23They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days (long) : but all the children of Israel (for three days long) had light in their dwellings."
    "24And Pharaoh called Moses and said, Go, worship your LORD; only let your flocks and your herds stay : let your little ones also go with you. 25But Moses said, You must also give us sacrifices and burnt offerings which we may sacrifice to the LORD our God. 26And our cattle also must go with us; there shall not a hoof be left behind; for we must take them all to serve the LORD our God; and we know not with what else we should serve the LORD after we have left. 27But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not let them go. 28But Pharaoh told Moses, Get thee from me, beware, see my face no more, for the day you see my face, you're dead! 29And Moses said, Thou hast spoken well, I will see thy face again no more."
    11:
    "1Then the LORD told Moses, YET will I bring one more plague upon Pharaoh and upon Egypt; AFTERWARDS he will let you go hence ... speak NOW in the ears of the people... 4And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out throughout all Egypt 5and all the firstborn shall die..."

    Therefore, yes, at <<first Pharaoh refuses Moses>>, but not <<at the end of the days of darkness>>, but the same day that "Moses stretched forth his hand and there began a thick darkness", Pharaoh refused Moses> who immediately went away from Pharaoh to do what the LORD had in store for him to further do. Which Moses did before "midnight" when he announced that the LORD will go out to execute the last plague, the three days darkness relentless going on while the LORD allowed the Egyptians light for sight enough only to do the bidding of the Israelites.

    God revealed to Moses the oncoming death of the firstborn not <<one or two (or three) days in the future>>, but that very night at "midnight". The LORD gave it in the heart of Pharaoh and of the Egyptians to "thrust you out hence altogether."

    In fact, as it seems to me, Moses made announcement while within in Pharaoh's hearing, immediately after telling him that he won't see him again. Moses "went out from Pharaoh in great anger", in verse 8 only.

    The events of the first night in which <<the Hebrew daub(ed) blood on their doorways and so forth>> are delivered in pockets of texts; not in unbroken relating. I won't even try to explain the exodus historically. Its story is of the historical miracle, of God's Salvation. The LORD "carried" his people out on "mighty arms under"; and like an eagle bore them on his wings. Therefore because the prophet wrote of three days darkness also three nights darkness wherein the firstborn of Egypt were slain in darkness and Israel in light afterwards "went out" and passed through the Red Sea in light for them but darkness for the Egyptians, and "entered in" and were "planted" in the land of the promise of the LORD GOD within the parameters of those three days darkness also three nights darkness, I read it literally as it in reality must be understood by faith, spiritually.
     
    #7 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Apr 13, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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