NIV Calls Lucifer, "Jesus" (Article)

So you believe salvation is by good works and if you don't do good works and overcome the world you will be lost?

 

Actually, not. The Greek "Ihsou" (Jesus) and the Hebrew "Yehshua" (Joshua) are the same word meaning "Jehovah Saves."

You will have to blame God for that one. He inspired a neuter pronoun.

Actually such capitalization is a relatively recent addition to English grammar.

Why give the KJVOs more ammunition for claiming the rest of us are stupid by posting such stupid and easily refuted nonsense?

 

This thread would have been an NIV hit-and-run but brothersmiller came back to do a backover.

So it's an NIV hit-and-run-and-backover.

Let's see if he returns to the scene of the crime.

HankD

 

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Claims by the KJVOnlyists that the NIV "replaced Satan with Jesus" are just another patently false, boldfaced lie.
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Are you blind? The plain and literal reading in the NIV has done this. Are you so blind you cannot see this at face value? By the way, they did not replace Satan with Jesus, they replaced Jesus with Satan.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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To bad people don't know about English
figues of speach like SIMILIEs and
METAPHORs. They will never be able to
handle prophecy if they can't get
the simple cases like "lucifer"

AND what about the polysendton
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But I thought the whole reasoning behind the modern versions was to make it easier for one to understand and read? Double standards? No - more like deception. You don't deceive by enticing with poison, but rather enticing with the truth added in with a little poison.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Day star and morning star are terms of majesty and power - no wonder they are applied to Jesus! No surprise here!

Regarding Lucifer - the name is Latin meaning bearing light or giving light. This is the word Jerome used to translate the Hebrew "heylel" The real derivation of this word is not known - it could be a form of "howl" or a form of "shine", with the latter likely being preferred.

The passage in Isaiah is NOT written about satan - it's an oracle against and earthly king. That doesn't mean we could not see a second meaning in it but it is clearly directed against a human (as evidenced by the surrounding words).

And anyway why would there be a problem with referring to Satan as the morning star - as if he were a "pretender" to that position. Isn't that what he does?

This is, unfortunately, and example of the human tendency to stir up strife among believers.

Brothersmiller - this is a debate and discussion forum - not a place to make an inflammatory statement and not be prepared to discuss it rationally.

 

Michelle, you seem to have missed the point. The figures of speech are what God inspired in the Hebrew and Greek. When those figures of speech are translated into English they often are misunderstood by the reader, which has happened in this case. You, and the other KJVOs on the forum, seem ignorant of the fact that "Lucifer" was the name given to the planet Venus by the ancients. If you will just look the word "Lucifer" up in any good dictionary you will see:

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Lu·ci·fer n. The planet Venus in its appearance as the morning star. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company)

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Lucifer: \Lu"ci*fer\, n. [L., bringing light, n., the morning star, fr. lux, lucis, light + ferre to bring.] 1. The planet Venus, when appearing as the morning star; -- applied in Isaiah by a metaphor to a king of Babylon. (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.)

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Lucifer: Venus \Ve"nus\, n. [L. Venus, -eris, the goddess of love, the planet Venus.] 1. (Class. Myth.) The goddess of beauty and love, that is, beauty or love deified.

2. (Anat.) One of the planets, the second in order from the sun, its orbit lying between that of Mercury and that of the Earth, at a mean distance from the sun of about 67,000,000 miles. Its diameter is 7,700 miles, and its sidereal period 224.7 days. As the morning star, it was called by the ancients Lucifer; as the evening star, Hesperus. (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.)

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Lucifer: brilliant star, a title given to the king of Babylon (Isa. 14:12) to denote his
glory. (Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary)

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And, finally, the dictionary of choice for every KJVO I have ever met, Webster's 1828:

LU'CIFER, n. [L. lux, lucis, light, and fero, to bring.]

1. The planet Venus, so called from its brightness.

 

Nothing like diffusing the issue yet again. If Lucifer really was referring to the planet Venus, then that would be most appropriate rendering in the modern versions, if this is what they have a problem with, in this word choice of Lucifer. Why did the KJV translators not render this Venus? You all know why.

However, this passage is speaking specifically about Satan who fell from heaven. This can cause nothing but confusion to the believer who has NEVER READ the KJV of the Bible, as to who this morning star is. There are many out there who are claiming the morning star is Lucifer, making Lucifer Jesus Christ (to which many people, such as Madame Blavatsky referred to as Christ - her christ who is Satan, or Lucifer), to whom he IS NOT. God is not the author of confusion, and the KJV translators properly translated this word, to Lucifer, which means light bearer and morning star. The Hebrew word means bright one. Whether this is referring to the planet venus or not, that is not the intended meaning of this passage. This is speaking of the son of the morning, to the bright one who fell from heaven, speaking of Satan's fall from heaven. There are dual meanings to this passage that have been shown regarding this, but the main point is speaking of Lucifer who is Satan, and many generations of believers knew this to be the truth, and this is how it has been understood. You are trying to concoct some new understanding of this passage in order to justify, and excuse a clear, direct and quite obvious BLASPHEMY against our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

WHERE IS YOUR FEAR OF THE LORD?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I know why, buty you apparantly don't so I'll enlighten you. The word "lucifer" is the latin vulgate term for "morning star". The KJV translators kept the word as-is in translation. The KJV translators did not intend for the verse in Isaiah to refer to Satan. When you make the assertion that they otherwise did, you're perverting scripture, plain and simple.

 

johnv said:

Now, let me get this straight, johnv, with all due respects, you are saying what, that the Bible was referring to the planet venus falling from heaven ? that there was no being that actually falled from heaven, whatever word was used to describe or identify that being ? Isaiah was talking about the planet venus and not a being named Lucifer whom Jesus Himself said He saw fall from heaven and whom He called Satan ?

 

I already told you why! In 1611 the planet Venus was called Lucifer! And that is exactly how they rendered it! Today, another name for Venus is Morning Star, and that is exactly how the NIV rendered it! How many more times do you have to be told before it sinks in?

No, the passage is speaking of the king of Babylon! Read the context! It may have a secondary reference to Satan (I believe it does, anyway) but the primary reference is to the king of Babylon just like the chapter says!

The morning star is Venus.

Wrong again! The morning star is the planet Venus! Lucifer and Venus are the same thing!

No, the passage is speaking of the king of Babylon and using the brightness of Venus (Lucifer) as an illustration.

So, are you saying that God, and the KJV, is wrong in verse 4 when it identifies the person being addressed "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon?" Do you really believe God is an idiot and can't tell the difference between the king of Babylon and Satan? Do you really think the KJV translators were so stupid they couldn't tell the difference between the king of Babylon and Satan?

The word of God is not blasphemy! And the word of God says it is addressing "the king of Babylon." Why do you call God a liar?

Where is yours? How dare you call God a liar and an idiot! How dare you call the word of God blasphemy!

 

Okay, now, let's paraphrase Isaiah 14:12, and use Venus. Was the Holy Spirit then saying :

"How you have fallen from heaven, o venus, son of the morning star. how cut down to the ground you are, you who have weakened the nations."

Forgive me if I sound a little confused here, but, what is the spiritual value of us knowing about the fall of a planet ? And johnv said that that hebrew word used was actually a praise word that means hallelujah. who was praising whom ?

Was it supposed to be read or translated "how thou art fallen from heaven, give praise to the almighty one ?" I'm just following your reasoning and arguments here, johnv, no disrespect intended.

Better yet, I think I'll start a whole new thread just on Isaiah 14:12-14, and Luke 10:18 since these two verses seem to be connected somehow.

 

Which is one time more than it is found in the Hebrew original language manuscripts.

This thread is yet another attack on God's word. It is a foolish attempt to slander God's word by failing to notice the context in which these words are used, and by failing to note the original language manuscripts.

 

There is an old saying regarding the bible. "A text out of context is a pretext." Verse 4 of that same chapter makes it very clear the person being referred to is the king of Babylon. He was great, then he fell. He was strong, now he is weak. He was a conqueror, now he is conquered. He was mighty, now he is cut down, just as he cut down the nations he first weakened through military conquest.

We praise the One who is Light! The One whose Light Shines Brighter than all the stars of heaven. The bible says Jesus is the Light.

You have confused two different words. What you have done is known as the root fallacy. Because the root word "heyel" meaning "shinning" is also the root word for "hallelujah" does not mean that everything that is shiny is Jehovah God.

Actually you didn't follow his reasoning and arguments. You ran off into left field and tried to make him seem to be saying something he never said nor intended.

 

Christ said He "saw satan fall from the sky like lightning". Thus we have over the years recognized Is 14:12 as referring to the fall of satan. Read the rest of Ch 14 - this verse is about the king of Babylon. This is really a case where we're letting human opinion cloud things. We really don't even have any proof that Lucifer has anything at all to do with satan.

Now before anyone labels me a heretic look in the Bible and see if it actually says that Lucifer is satan - Isaiah is talking about the king of Babylon - a man!

 

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Lucifer: brilliant star, a title given to the king of Babylon (Isa. 14:12) to denote his
glory. (Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary)
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This speaks volumes of why the KJV translators chose this rendering.

Let us read now:

Isaiah 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exhalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake the kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

This is clearly not speaking of the planet venus, but a person, who is Satan.

Now read;

2 Thess. 2

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exhalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall the Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received no the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 17

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Matthew 4

8 Again, the devil taketh him up to an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, THOU SHALT WORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD, AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE.


Matthew 16

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Revelation 12

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
....

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
...

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitors of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth swallowed up the flood, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blasphemy his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 20

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Luke 10

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


The scriptures are very clear as to this passage of Isaiah 14 is speaking of none other than Satan himself. We are instructed to rightly divide the word of truth.

WHERE IS YOUR FEAR OF THE LORD?

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

"Lucifer" is not in the Hebrew or Greek texts. It is only in the KJ whose translators apparently decided to use the Latin word for the Hebrew "star of the morning" or "day star."

Jesus calls himself the "morning star" (helel) in Rev. 22:16. However, the term "morning star" or "helel" or "shining one" is neutral itself. It all depends on context as to whether being a shining one is good or not.

The problem seems to be with the KJ version using "Lucifer" in Is. 14, but Lucifer was never a name in Hebrew or Greek for Satan.

 

This is what I was trying to say:

Source

I do not endorse the above website's theology, btw, but I think this information is correct.

The info below comes from ChristianAnswers.net entry on Lucifer:

http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/lucifer.html

 

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The morning star is Venus
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The morning star is Jesus. Scripture tells us this:

2 Peter 1

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Revelation 2

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
....

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; AS THE VESSELS OF A POTTER SHALL THEY BE BROKEN TO SHIVERS: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Revelation 22

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

This is who the scriptures say the morning star is - Jesus Christ our Lord.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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So, are you saying that God, and the KJV, is wrong in verse 4 when it identifies the person being addressed "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon?" Do you really believe God is an idiot and can't tell the difference between the king of Babylon and Satan? Do you really think the KJV translators were so stupid they couldn't tell the difference between the king of Babylon and Satan?

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Study the book of Revelation and you will have a much better understanding of this passage. Refer to my post to which I gave the scripture references pertaining to the dragon.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle