NKJV vs KJV accuracy

[Ed Edwards]

Hi Pastor Larry

I said........

Then you said......

That was cute.

But, “is there”...another English Bible, that interprets Matthew 28:19........
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations”

If my knowledge is indeed flawed, than which English translation is it?

Isn't the Wyclife ( BibleGateway.com )

Matthew 28:19 (Wycliffe New Testament)

Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)2001 by Terrence P. Noble,


19 Therefore go ye, and teach all folks, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost;


Quite a folksy translation, eh?

 

[annsni]

Yes and no, "help meet" is translated from one Hebrew word but is two words in English. "Meet" retains its English meaining in this passage. Have a look at the oed.com entry under helpmeet (one word) for some interesting perspective.

Perhaps you would like to take a stab at how the NKJV ends up with "comparable".

What the Old English Dictionary says doesn't mean anything since the Hebrew doesn't say anything about "meet". What translators put in doesn't make it correct. Would you like to take a stab at how the KJV ends up with "help meet"? The word means "help". Here are the other verses with the word in it:

Exodus 18:4
Deut. 33:7, 26, 29
Psalm 20:2; 33:20; 70:5; 89:19; 115:9, 10, 11; 121:1, 2; 124:8; 146:5
Isaiah 30:5
Daniel 11:34
Hosea 13:9

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

"It ain't the KJV" still reigns as the number one reason.

All the examples given are differences in the language over nearly 400 years of usage.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Mexdeaf & annsni


I have saved your two responses for last, because I want to pick your brains a little.
--------------------------------------------------
First of all, this all started, when I was asked to give an example, of where the NKJV, and the KJV, used different words, and sure enough I found one.
--------------------------------------------------
Now Mexdeaf; You said........

“Years before such things as KJVO's were popular”

As far as I know, the KJVO’s were popular, from about 1700 to 1900 AD,

Now are you talking about “years before that”?
--------------------------------------------------
And as for what preachers were saying(behind the pulpits), and what the crowds were yelling, anytime before 1865 or so, we don’t know for sure.
Recording devices weren’t around then and so all we have is second hand information.
--------------------------------------------------
Now, annsni
You mentioned the word “matheteuo”

Now here, is what I have learned about the word “teach” in this verse.......
“It’s a Verb”
-----------
Strong’s Definition:

3100 mayhteuw matheteuo math-ayt-yoo’-o from 3101; TDNT-4:461,552; v
AV-teach 2, instruct 1, be disciple 1; 4
1) to be a disciple of one: (1a) to follow his precepts and instructions
2) to make a disciple (2a) to teach, instruct

-----------
Thayer’s Definition:

G3100 μαθητεύ? mathē?teuō?
1) to be a disciple of one (1a) to follow his precepts and instructions
2) to make a disciple (2a) to teach, instruct
Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3101
Citing in TDNT: 4:461, 552

-------------------------------------
Now as for the word “disciple”:
“It’s a Noun”
-----------
Strong’s Definition:

3101 mayhthv mathetes math-ay-tes’ from 3129; TDNT-4:415,552; n m
AV-disciple 268, vr disciple 1; 269
(1) a learner, pupil, disciple

-----------
Thayer’s Definition:

G3101 μαθητή? mathē?tē?s
1) a learner, pupil, disciple Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3129
Citing in TDNT: 4:415, 552

--------------------------------------------------
As you can see, the word “disciple”(noun), is found about 269 times in the New Testament, while the word that we are looking at (“teach”, verb), is only found about 4 times.
It is translated once, “teach”, and then another time “taught” another time “instructed” and one time “Jesus’ disciple”.

If the Lord had wanted to say disciple, He surely could have, but He didn’t.

Instead He said this other word. The same word, that (The Bishop's Bible), (The Coverdale Bible), (The Geneva Bible), (The Webster Bible) and (The KJV Bible), all translate “teach”.
While Bible’s like the NIV, RSV, NASB, etc, translate, “Make Disciples”.

Now the question is, which is the correct interpretation?
--------------------------------------------------
An interesting observation, that I have made.

A few yeas ago, as I was writing a paper, and used the word, discipled. My word processor, put a red line under it, because it was misspelled.

After going to my dictionary, I discovered, that it wasn’t misspelled after all, because the word discipled, does not exist.

Neither do the words, discipleship nor discipling, exist.

Using these words, would be like saying, “Studented”, or “Studentship” or “Studenting”.
--------------------------------------------------
I would love, to be able to make people want to sit at Jesus feet and learn God’s Word.
But this is a decision, that each individual Christian must make themselves!


Thank you, for any help you can give me.

 

[AntennaFarmer]

The KJVs incorrectly suggest that 'he' (Messiah) made 'his' (Messiah) grave with the wicked. This is supported by no other verse and is poor doctrine

You are making a mental leap here that I can't follow. "They" are the wicked? What other verses support "they"? Can you expand on this?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Neither do the words, discipleship nor discipling, exist.

Using these words, would be like saying, “Studented”, or “Studentship” or “Studenting”.

You are creating a difference where there is none.

"Teach" and "Make disciples" mean the exact same thing. The both involve the process of teaching, training, discipling, and indeed, if you wish, studenting.

Don't be limited by dictionaries secular dictionaries when discussing Bible concepts. They are nice tools, but that is all.

If you want an example of a real difference look at 1 John 5v12 in the KJV1611, the KJV 1769, and the NKJV.

 

[AntennaFarmer]

What the Old English Dictionary says doesn't mean anything since the Hebrew doesn't say anything about "meet". What translators put in doesn't make it correct. Would you like to take a stab at how the KJV ends up with "help meet"? The word means "help". Here are the other verses with the word in it:

...

OED is Oxford English Dictionary. My primary comment was addressing an English definition.

My question did relate to Hebrew. Your answer was not helpful, however.

The KJV probably ends up with "meet" exactly the same way that the NIV, NLT(vs 20) and NASB ended up with "suitable" and the ESV and RSV ended up with "fit". Perhaps there is more to it than a simple word substitution. This suggests that your comment is either incomplete or in error.

For now I will withdraw my (partial) statement " "help meet" is translated from one Hebrew word" because I need to study the passage more.

Unless you can help me choose between a LM329 and a LM336 I have to go back to my antenna farming.

God Bless all
good night

 

[AntennaFarmer]

If you want an example of a real difference look at 1 John 5v12 in the KJV1611, the KJV 1769, and the NKJV.

You wouldn't side track us would you C4K?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

You wouldn't side track us would you C4K?

Nope, the theme is accuracy of the KJV and NKJV. Some have claimed that they have chosen the KJV and not the NKJV because they are not the same. The examples given here as to meaning are far less than the differences in that one verse.

 

[AntennaFarmer]

Ok, I think I will keep my head down in case we get the usual riot!

God bless

A.F.

 

[Pastor Larry]

No Biblical reason to have the KJV as a point of reference? I don't even think that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense. The Bible itself gives you no reason to choose the KJV as a point of reference. In other words, you will not find one verse in the Bible that makes the KJV the point of reference.

Please show me the original manuscript that I should use as a point of reference. You can't. I know because I have looked. None of them read like my copy of Nestle-Alland.

There are no original manuscripts. But you talk about my reading things you didn't say. You didn't read what I did say. I said "original language manuscripts." And there are many of those.

I grasp your objection perfectly. It is completely wrong. It is a meaningless semantic argument.

No I don't think you grasp it. Your responses are misleading. You have no biblical basis for using the KJV as a reference point. And if you are correct that the KJV is the reference point, then most of church history has had no reference point. And I could give other reasons.

 

[Pastor Larry]

But, “is there”...another English Bible, that interprets Matthew 28:19........
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations”

If my knowledge is indeed flawed, than which English translation is it?

I am not sure why you are asking the question. You are operating under the flawed knowledge that mathetheuo can only mean "teach." You are wrong. It means to make disciples. The noun form (mathetes) means "disciple." The verb form means "make disciples."

So versions that say "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" are correctly translating the passage.

 

[EdSutton]

An interesting observation, that I have made.

A few yeas (sic) ago, as I was writing a paper, and used the word, discipled. My word processor, put a red line under it, because it was misspelled.

After going to my dictionary, I discovered, that it wasn’t misspelled after all, because the word discipled, does not exist.

Neither do the words, discipleship nor discipling, exist.

...

Thank you, for any help you can give me.

Dis*ci"ple, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Discipled (?); p. pr. & vb. n. Discipling.]
1.
To teach; to train.
[Obs.]

That better were in virtues discipled. Spenser.​

2.
To punish; to discipline.
[Obs.] B. Jonson.
3.
To make disciples of; to convert to doctrines or principles.
[R.]

Sending missionaries to disciple all nations. E. D. Griffin.​

© Webster 1913.​

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Discipleship \Dis*ci"ple*ship\, n.
The state of being a disciple or follower in doctrines and
precepts. --Jer. Taylor.

Discipling: Definition of Discipling in Webster's Dictionary 1913 Edition


(p. pr. & vb. n.) of Disciple

"Perhaps whomever programmed your word processor might need to become a better disciple of the English language!"

Signed, Language Cop

 

[EdSutton]

Isn't the Wyclife ( BibleGateway.com )

Matthew 28:19 (Wycliffe New Testament)

Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)2001 by Terrence P. Noble,


19 Therefore go ye, and teach all folks, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost;


Quite a folksy translation, eh?

Ya' beat me to this one.

But one might add the Tyndale (TNT), KJ21, Third Millenium Bible, Douai-Reims, and I would strongly suspect the KJII (LITV) to the list, that now includes some 10 or more different editions/versions that do render this word as "teach".

However, I also found this:

teach...: or, make disciples, or, Christians of all nations (Marginal notes from the KJ Translators)

Even the KJV translators recognized the 'alternative(s)' amounted to the same thing. Interesting, wot!??

Ed

P.S. I'm t'other Ed, so no one gets confused. :thumbs:

 

[stilllearning]

Hi AntennaFarmer

Please forgive me, for almost getting this tread off track.......
I did not intend to do that.
--------------------------------------------------
As for why, all of us should use the KJV as a point of reference......
(Here is a good reason!)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MONphmfQmbk

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Hi AntennaFarmer

Please forgive me, for almost getting this tread off track.......
I did not intend to do that.
--------------------------------------------------
As for why, all of us should use the KJV as a point of reference......
(Here is a good reason!)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MONphmfQmbk

Sorry SL, I have a very difficult time with your source on this one. Don't want to derail the thread so will stop with that.

 

[annsni]

Hi Mexdeaf & annsni


I have saved your two responses for last, because I want to pick your brains a little.
--------------------------------------------------
First of all, this all started, when I was asked to give an example, of where the NKJV, and the KJV, used different words, and sure enough I found one.
--------------------------------------------------
Now Mexdeaf; You said........


As far as I know, the KJVO’s were popular, from about 1700 to 1900 AD,

Now are you talking about “years before that”?
--------------------------------------------------
And as for what preachers were saying(behind the pulpits), and what the crowds were yelling, anytime before 1865 or so, we don’t know for sure.
Recording devices weren’t around then and so all we have is second hand information.
--------------------------------------------------
Now, annsni
You mentioned the word “matheteuo”

Now here, is what I have learned about the word “teach” in this verse.......
“It’s a Verb”
-----------
Strong’s Definition:

-----------
Thayer’s Definition:

-------------------------------------
Now as for the word “disciple”:
“It’s a Noun”
-----------
Strong’s Definition:

-----------
Thayer’s Definition:

--------------------------------------------------
As you can see, the word “disciple”(noun), is found about 269 times in the New Testament, while the word that we are looking at (“teach”, verb), is only found about 4 times.
It is translated once, “teach”, and then another time “taught” another time “instructed” and one time “Jesus’ disciple”.

If the Lord had wanted to say disciple, He surely could have, but He didn’t.

Instead He said this other word. The same word, that (The Bishop's Bible), (The Coverdale Bible), (The Geneva Bible), (The Webster Bible) and (The KJV Bible), all translate “teach”.
While Bible’s like the NIV, RSV, NASB, etc, translate, “Make Disciples”.

Now the question is, which is the correct interpretation?
--------------------------------------------------
An interesting observation, that I have made.

A few yeas ago, as I was writing a paper, and used the word, discipled. My word processor, put a red line under it, because it was misspelled.

After going to my dictionary, I discovered, that it wasn’t misspelled after all, because the word discipled, does not exist.

Neither do the words, discipleship nor discipling, exist.

Using these words, would be like saying, “Studented”, or “Studentship” or “Studenting”.
--------------------------------------------------
I would love, to be able to make people want to sit at Jesus feet and learn God’s Word.
But this is a decision, that each individual Christian must make themselves!


Thank you, for any help you can give me.

Crazy busy today - daughter's graduation party. But I just wanted to address this. Discipled and discipling are words - whether the dictionary has them or not (and apparently they do). But the important difference between teaching and making disciples is this: with teaching, you give information and that's pretty much it. In making disciples, you are not only giving information but you are sharing your heart and there is a feeling of mentoring involved. Discipling a new believer is not just giving them a couple of books and telling them what to believe - it's much more than that.

 

[EdSutton]

Sorry SL, I have a very difficult time with your source on this one. Don't want to derail the thread so will stop with that.

Probably a good choice, here.

Ed

 

[HankD]

The KJV is more superior to NKJV

That depends on several factors.

Which translation is superior and why?

KJV
2 Corinthians 6

11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.​

NKJV
2 Corinthians 6
11 O Corinthians! We have spoken openly to you, our heart is wide open.
12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections.
13 Now in return for the same (I speak as to children), you also be open.​

 

[Mexdeaf]

Hi Mexdeaf & annsni

Now Mexdeaf; You said........


As far as I know, the KJVO’s were popular, from about 1700 to 1900 AD,

Now are you talking about “years before that”?
--------------------------------------------------
And as for what preachers were saying(behind the pulpits), and what the crowds were yelling, anytime before 1865 or so, we don’t know for sure.
Recording devices weren’t around then and so all we have is second hand information.
--------------------------------------------------

I am talking about before say, 1970. All of the KJVO history revisionists want to make it appear that what modern-day KJVO's teach and believe was the norm prior to about 1970. (I say "about 1970" because it was about that time that it became an issue in the group I was running with at the time.)

Prior to about 1995, it was not uncommon for one to hear a preacher read from the KJV and expound upon the meaning of the underlying Greek or Hebrew text. No one cried 'foul' at that time. It was completely acceptable for a preacher to acknowledge that the KJV words might not be the best exact words to use in exegeting the underlying text- although no preacher worthy of the title would call the KJV a bad translation. The KJV is indeed an excellent translation, however modern day English usage has rendered many of the words therein obsolete.

I won't beat this dead horse any longer- it just spreads the odor.