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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Luke2427, Jan 31, 2011.

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  1. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    *ahem* from your post #16
    You mentioned Augustine here in post #16, and it brought to mind "Original sin", and the way he defined it, so I looked it up, and I totally disagree with his definition of it.

    His definition of it, doesn't "jive" with the Word of God, and I let His Word be my comfort, my guide, my light, my hope, my strength, and my Bread!!

    I know that no amount of scripture will ever change your mind, and I know this. But, I do enjoy our discussions, even when they become strained!!

    i am I AM's

    Willis
     
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You have yet to respond to post 16 in ANY meaningful way.

    And you TOTALLY ignored the post here to which you are supposed to be responding.

    "...sin... that it might appear sin..."

    Sin was there before the law revived. The law came alive to Paul and made the sin which was already in him appear to be what it really was.

    That is the plain reading of that text.

    You will not find a SINGLE reputable commentary or theologian who will agree with the way you and willis abuse that text.
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    From Mark Sidwell :Biblical Viewpoint

    "Modern Christians need to gain an appreciation of his true worth in light of the shallow,intemperate,and historically uninformed attacks on Augustine by some modern conservative Christian writers."
     
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I wasn't referring to Augustine's view on original sin there, Willis. I was simply saying that it was awful arrogant for Winman to haphazardly say that he had made distinctions that the greatest theological minds the world has ever known have not even considered.

    You don't bring Scripture to bear in these discussion Willis unless it is some private interpretation- something NO reputable theologian or scholar or commentator would agree with.

    These men believe the Bible too Willis. And none of them are right about everything. But to embrace some private interpretation of a passage which NONE of them in HISTORY agree with- and to do so like it's no big deal- it is TERRIBLY presumptuous.

    It assumes that you are a man of the Bible more than ALL of them or that you are smarter than all of them.

    I think you and Winman think of yourselves as Bible men and think these theologians are not. I think that is horrific!
     
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Luke, the Catholics fully realized the problem Original Sin presented. If sin is inherited through the flesh as Augustine taught, then Jesus would have been a sinner through Mary. They also knew that the scriptures taught that Jesus's flesh was 100% human. Jesus had fleshly desires just like we do, that is why Satan tempted him with bread when he was hungry. So the Catholics simply invented the idea that Mary herself was conceived without sin. That is ridiculous, because she offered a sin offering after Jesus was born, so obviously she was a sinner.
    We get our bodies from both parents, not one, so if sin is inherited through the flesh as Augustine (and Calvin) taught, Jesus would have been born a sinner.
     
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    This does not have a THING to do with what we are talking about. Who cares what the Catholics believed?

    You cannot answer the arguments put to you so you are deflecting.

    You will NOT respond in any meaningful way to post 16 nor will deal with the plain interpretation of Romans 7 that I shared.
     
  7. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    My Daughter is One of Them

    This is a timely point. My daughter seems to think everyone, including her, is going to heaven. She doesn't think, or believe she is a sinner, and doesn't believe she needs the blood to cover those sins.

    She is of course gay, and practices some weird form of spirit guide stuff.

    She is like so many I know, and it saddens my heart because, like my daughter. They will argue until they are blue in the face that they are going to heaven, because God would never send ANYONE to hell.

    Great post, and an even greater point. :thumbsup:

    Pastor Paul
     
  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Would you agree that the wages of sin are inherited through the flesh?

    for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
     
  9. slave 4 Christ

    slave 4 Christ New Member

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    Your missing Paul's point here.

    To understand what Paul is teaching we must back up to verse 6.

    Paul was brought up under the feet of Gamaliel.
    Make no mistake, Paul was taught the "law".
    He was taught by one of the best, but the application of the "law" was taught falsely.

    When Saul of Tarsus, as a boy, first came into contact with God's law, he was taught the commandments were "ordained unto life".

    But now Paul is a new creation.
    His understanding of the "law" has changed.
    Paul has died to his former understanding of the law.
    He died to what "held him captive".
    In fact what Paul thought was "ordained to life", became what "slew" him.

    See the difference in verse 6, "new way" in contrast to "old way".

    Paul now advances this "new way" to view the Law.

    The new view of the law does not cause sin, but simply reveals sin.

    Paul tells us what the law, in it's proper understanding, caused him to see about himself. He now knew the truth about his hopeless condition.

    We are left with no doubt to the true nature of God's law.

    That is to reveal the sinful, sinning nature of man.

    To be continued in next post.....
     
  10. slave 4 Christ

    slave 4 Christ New Member

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    Now with the truth from the last post in mind, let us continue.
    Paul now advances the absolute destruction of those trying to "live" by the "law".

    Vs. 9 Paul is alive apart from the True view of the law (ie.to reveal sin), and his real sin lies dead.
    But when the "true nature" of the commandment was realized sin became truly understood.
    And now everything Saul of Tarsus had depended on for religion "died".

    Saul of Tarsus was "alive" in a false religious sense.
    In vs. 10 "the very commandment" he thought promised life proved in reality to be death to him.

    In vs. 11 Paul remarks about the deceptive nature of sin. The hardest sin to uncover is self-righteousness.

    Saul of Tarsus was deceived by his self-saving religion.
    How so? He thought he was right and the Christians were wrong.
    But the true use of the "Law of God", as is the case even today, can reveal the futility of salvation in anything other than Christ Jesus.
     
  11. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Now, where did you come to this horrendous conclusion, Brother? Never once have I stated I was a bible man or bible scholar. I have came to my conclusions, the same way as others have, through prayer and meditation.

    Hey, Brother, just because they have a big following, doesn't make them sound in their doctrine. Much could be said about Jim Jones, David Koresh(sp?), Joseph Smith, Mohammad, etc. A big following does not quantify soundness, Brother. I am not saying that y'all are like those "cults", just using them for examples. Again, I have came to my convictions through prayer and meditation.
     
  12. luke1616

    luke1616 New Member

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    So Winman are you trying to say, that we are born into sin, but are innocent until we commit our actual first sin, at whatever age that may be?
     
  13. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Exo. 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

    32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

    33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. It states that whosoever sinned/sins against Me, him will I blot out of the Book of Life. So to be blotted out, their names must have been there to start with, correct??

    Ecc. 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    Matt.18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

    2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

    3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. If little children/babies are born dead as the DoG demands, then what good would it do to become little children, when their soul would have remained the same.

    4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Now, if children are born in sins, then why would Jesus make a statement such as this??? Hmmmmm.

    5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.


    1Cor. 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
    Again, why should they as men be like children in malice but in understanding, like men. If your position is consistent, then there is no change in their status before God when they do this.

    1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Greek word used for committeth: poieō 4160 Strong's Greek

    1) to make

    a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.

    b) to be the authors of, the cause

    c) to make ready, to prepare

    d) to produce, bear, shoot forth

    e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self

    f) to make a thing out of something

    g) to (make i.e.) render one anything

    1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that

    2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything

    h) to put one forth, to lead him out

    i) to make one do something

    1) cause one to

    j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)

    2) to do

    a) to act rightly, do well

    1) to carry out, to execute

    b) to do a thing unto one

    1) to do to one

    c) with designation of time: to pass, spend

    d) to celebrate, keep

    1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover

    e) to perform: to a promise


    Now how can a baby commit these things, when they do not even know the exist, being a new born babe??

    Psa. 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    Rom. 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #53 convicted1, Feb 1, 2011
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  14. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Here are a few more:

    Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    1Pet. 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

    Rom. 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

    2Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Ezek. 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    Isa.59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

    2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.


    Jer. 19:1 Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter's earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests;

    2 And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee,

    3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

    4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;

    5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Now if babies/children are born sinners, then how could God call this The blood of Innocents when they were sacrificing their sons to Baal??

    6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.

    Matt. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

    37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    We will be judged for what we do, and no one else!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    We certainly inherit the curse, because all die. We inherit a corrupt body from our parents.
    But having a body with lusts and desires is not sinful itself. It is when we give into these desires that sin.
    As I said, the Catholics fully and rightly understood that Jesus's body was 100% human, he was the "seed of the woman" in Genesis. When Augustine came along and said sin was inherited through the flesh (original sin), they had to explain how Jesus could not be born a sinner.
    If sin is inherited through the flesh as Augustine taught, then Jesus was born a sinner just like the rest of us.
    If Jesus had a body with lusts and desires but never obeyed those lusts, then Jesus was not a sinner.
    The early church fathers before Augustine did not believe in Original Sin.
     
  16. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Here is a website that I think will help explain my position:

    Please do not this take it that I agree with all the wording used in response to Calvinism coming from this author. I agree with his stance, but not all his wording he uses....I am not being disrespectful, I just want y'all(DoG's) to know this!!

    www.midwaybiblebaptistchurch.com/prov-thot/Miller/are_we_born_sinners.htm
     
    #56 convicted1, Feb 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2011
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I didn't say anything about a big following, Brother Willis. That is not a qualifier I used to support orthodoxy.


    I want to encourage you to do something that I think will help you grow.

    Grab a good church history book. Go to the index and look up "Orthodoxy and the Canon".

    Study that and you'll see the church was a mess theologically her first 250 years of existence. Wild, crazy doctrines were springing up left and right and EVERY one of them had some kind of scriptural backing- like yours and Winman's. There were dozens dozens of sects riddled with heresies. There was NO DOCTRINE that the early church considered to be "not up for debate". It was all up for grabs.

    They did not HAVE a New Testament though it is certainly true that many considered the writing of various Apostles to be inspired. So they had no authority to argue for various truths. The church was doomed to perish in her infancy.

    Then came orthodoxy and the canon. Orthodoxy was the gradual establishment of doctrines by the mainstream church under the leadership of her greatest and wisest servants- and these doctrines were no longer up for debate. If you wanted to believe otherwise you were a heretic.

    Then the canon was established a short while later. The Canon is that list of books which are considered to be inspired.

    The church was saved. Yes, yes, of COURSE God saved her and God preserved her from destruction- but God used orthodoxy and the canon to do so.

    You and Winman and Webdog are of this new, dangerous generation that does not care about orthodoxy. And if you guys and this generatioin that you come from which began with the rise of Pentecostalism and Independent Churches and Non-denominationalism- if you guys are successful you will in a few years plunge the church into the chaos which threatened her destruction before orthodoxy and the canon.

    Winman is terribly dangerous. I expect more of you and webdog. You guys are smart. And you, I believe, are sincere- you are not just trying to win debates. I expect you to bury your nose in some history books and come up with a reverential fear for orthodox doctrines of the faith- WHICH ARE BIBLICAL.
     
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You do not have to do evil to be evil.

    Evil has it's origins, not in our deeds but in our nature.

    Ephesians is clear- you are BY NATURE the children of wrath.

    The Psalms and Romans 4 passage is a bad abuse of doctrine the way you are using it.

    Those redeemed by the blood of Christ are the ones to whom God will not impute sin.
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    This guy is obviously not educated nor is he orthodox.

    Like it or not, we are talking about TREMENDOUSLY complex matters that require IMMENSE study to grasp.

    Joe Blow is not going to sit down in a few minutes and get this stuff- and he can pray until he is blue in the face but God commands us to STUDY.

    You might as well expect a carpenter to do a heart transplant with his sheet-rock knife, and for him to think that he can because he knows how to cut things, as to expect somebody like this guy to tackle these issues.

    You are smarter than this guy, Willis. Don't step DOWN for your studies. Always step up. Study guys that are wiser than you- not guys that just agree with you.
     
    #59 Luke2427, Feb 1, 2011
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  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Brother.....if you are sincerely on this path, your walking thru very dangerous territory. Have you ever read Pilgrims Progress? your in it, up to your neck.
     
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