1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

No Doctrines Are Changed?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Will J. Kinney, Mar 18, 2004.

  1. Will J. Kinney

    Joined:
    May 15, 2001
    Messages:
    759
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Larry posts: When you hvae a gnat in your wine, you don't strain at it, you strain it out. Forget the OED, look up the word in the BAGD ... after all, that is where you find the word that God used.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Strain AT a gnat Matthew 23:24

    "Ye blind guides, which strain AT a gnat, and swallow a camel."

    There are many who criticize the KJB reading of "strain at a gnat". Some will tell us this is a printing error, yet I would ask how do they know this? It is mere assumption on their part. Others have had no difficulty at all with the rendering of strain at a gnat.

    The word "to strain" (diulizo) is found only once in the New Testament. How to translate this word is a matter of perspective. The rendering of "strain at" a gnat, implies only the effort to try to strain out the gnats that might ceremoniously defile their drink and food; it does not necessarily mean they succeeded in always getting them out. The modern versions like the NKJV, NASB, NIV, and even the older English versions of Tyndale and Geneva say "strain OUT a gnat", as though they accomplished what they intended.

    In 1729 Daniel Mace made a translation of the New Testament, and in Matthew 23:24 he translated as: "strain..FOR a gnat", which carries the same meaning as that found in the Authorized Version.

    There is nothing wrong with the KJB reading of "strain at a gnat." Other commentators in the past have had no problem with the way the phrase stands in the King James Bible.

    John Gill
    "To this practice Christ alluded here; and so very strict and careful were they in this matter, that to strain AT (caps mine) a gnat, and swallow a camel, became at length a proverb, to signify much solicitude about little things, and none about greater. These men would not, on any consideration, be guilty of such a crime, as not to pay the tithe of mint, anise, and cummin, and such like herbs and seeds; and yet made no conscience of doing justice, and showing mercy to men, or of exercising faith in God, or love to him. Just as many hypocrites, like them, make a great stir, and would appear very conscientious and scrupulous, about some little trifling things, and yet stick not, at other times, to commit the grossest enormities, and most scandalous sins in life.

    Matthew Henry
    "they strained AT a gnat, and swallowed a camel. In their doctrine they strained AT gnats, warned people against every the least violation of the tradition of the elders. In their practice they strained AT gnats, heaved AT them, with a seeming dread, as if they had a great abhorrence of sin, and were afraid of it in the least instance"

    These two commentators do not try to change the KJB reading here, though they both do so in other parts of the Scriptures. They affirm that the Pharisees had a great outward revulsion for minor sins, yet they swallowed a camel.

    How many gnats do you suppose were on that camel they swallowed?

    The KJB is always right.

    Will Kinney
     
  2. Will J. Kinney

    Joined:
    May 15, 2001
    Messages:
    759
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi brother Bill, you post: I was hoping he would refresh us by addressing all of this since I put it in one place in an orderly manner for him to refute or question blow by blow.Then we or at least I could truly understand his position and why he truly rationly takes it."

    Bill, though so far none of you on the other side of this issue have addressed any of the points I originally brought up, I will be glad to attempt to answer your source's questions.

    Obviously not all at once. So, pick just one example or point you mentioned in your encyclopedic post :), and I will try to answer as I understand it.

    Thanks,

    Will Kinney
     
  3. Will J. Kinney

    Joined:
    May 15, 2001
    Messages:
    759
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Kevin, you post: "Matthew 4:10? why did you say that? When Jesus said, "only" the LORD was to be worshiped, He didn't mean only? and if you are taking the KJV at face value then there's a apparent contradiction with Luke 14:10 that clearly states that if the friend went up higher, he'll have "worship" (KJV)super plain to me."

    Kevin, you seem to have a reading comprehension problem. Apparently you did not read my article on Luke 14:10 very closely, and even in your nkjv it says: "For it is written, You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."

    Kevin, the word "only" modifies "serve", not the word worship.

    Also, in my article (if you care to go back and read it carefully) I pointed out some things about serving only and how we also legitimately serve other people according to God's will.

    So you would overthrow the King James Bible as being the inerrant words of God and have us take up the NKJV which is VERY DIFFERENT in meaning in hundreds of verses, and contains theological errors, and which you yourself probably do not consider to be inerrant and inspired, and all for the word "worship"?

    I call this straining at gnats and swallowing a camel. Go for it, Kevin, if that is what you want to do, but don't expect me or many others to follow your example.

    Will
     
  4. Will J. Kinney

    Joined:
    May 15, 2001
    Messages:
    759
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Timothy, I read your explanation of straining AT a gnat, and the more I thought about it, the more sense it makes. I hadn't looked at it in this way before, but it makes a lot of sense.

    Thank you for this explanation. I have learned a lot more about the Bible since getting online and joining a few Bible clubs like this one.

    I appreciate your input.

    God bless,

    Will
     
  5. Will J. Kinney

    Joined:
    May 15, 2001
    Messages:
    759
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Larry, since you apparently think there are no contradictions or erroneous doctrines in all your multitude of conflicting "bibles", and that all the examples I posted have already been answered and disposed of by your side, would you mind refreshing our memories here and explain for us how one can "speed" or "hasten" the coming of the day of God, as your favorite versions teach?

    I will post the entire article so those who aren't too busy with other pressing needs will be able to see the soundness of the arguments I present from the King James Bible.

    Orvie and Mr. Ed need not pay any attention and can feel free to attend to their numerous other duties.

    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God

    2 Peter 3:12

    Promoters of the modern bible versions insist there are no doctrines of the Christian faith which are affected in any way by the differences between the King James Bible and it’s newer counterparts. This is blatantly false in several critical areas. This article will address only one of the several doctrines which have been changed in the NKJV, NIV, and NASB bibles.

    Puny man, who is but of dust, can do nothing to effect in any way the timetable already established by Almighty God. Man can neither speed up this timetable nor slow it down. This view is contrary to much modern Christian theology, that seems to portray God as a grandfatherly figure, wringing His hands with worry, hoping things will turn out the way He wants them, but He just can’t get man to cooperate with His desires.

    I believe the Biblical position reveals a God “who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.” When king Nebuchadnezzar’s understanding returned to him, after 7 times has passed over him by the decree of the Most High, he said: “ I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou.” Now, that is the God who is truly worthy of worship.

    Let’s look at some Scriptures which reveal who controls time; is it God or man? Acts 1:7 Jesus said unto them “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own hands.” Acts 17: 26, 31 tell us God “hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation”...”he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness.” Notice God determined the times and the day of judgment is already appointed. It is “circled on His calendar”.

    Revelation 9:15 “And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.” They have already been prepared by God down to the specific hour. Remember even Jesus said that they could not take him captive yet, for His hour had not yet come.

    Daniel 2: 20, 21 “Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: he changeth the times and the seasons; he removeth kings, and setteth up kings”

    Daniel 8:19 the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to give him understanding, and he said “Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.”

    Daniel 9: 24, 25 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression... And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself”

    Daniel 11: 27, 29, 35 ”yet the end shall be at the time appointed”...”At the time appointed he shall return...” “even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.”

    Habakkuk 2:3 “For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it: because it will surely come, it will not tarry.”

    It is just as the Psalmist said in 31:15 “My times are in thy hands.”

    Genesis 18:14 “Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee...and Sarah shall have a son.”

    In Judges 7: 10-14 Gideon is told that if he is afraid, to go down to the host of the Midianites. He goes down, and just as he is there listening, two men relate a dream which reveals that God will destroy the Midianites by the sword of Gideon. Coincidence? No, the timing of God.

    In Esther 6:1 Haman is plotting to kill Mordecai, but the night before Haman requests of the king to slay Mordecai, the king cannot sleep and calls for the chronicles to be read to him. Therein he reads of Mordecai having previously revealed a plot to kill the king, and he saved his life. Whereupon, the king decides to honor Mordecai. Coincidence that the king couldn’t sleep? No, the timing of God.

    Jeremiah 29: 10 - 12 “For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon, I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.” God sent this judgment upon Israel, and no matter how much or fervently they might have prayed, they would not be delivered from Babylon, till the appointed time of 70 years had passed.

    You might then ask, What does all this have to do with 2 Peter 3: 12? The verse says in the King Jamer Bible, Tyndale 1525, Miles Coverdale 1535, the Bishop's Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1599, Young's "literal" translation, the Douay 1950, the Spanish Reina Valera bibles 1909 and 1960, the Diodati Italian Bible 1602, Webster’s 1833 translation, the 21st Century KJB, and the Third Millenium Bible: “Looking for and HASTING UNTO the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

    However many new versions have changed the doctrine of the timing of God, by how they have changed the meaning of the inspired text. The NKJV, RSV, ESV, and the NASB say: “looking for and HASTENING the coming” while the NIV says: “as you look forward to the day of God and SPEED ITS COMING.” These versions clearly imply or state that man can do something to speed up the timetable of God. This is a false doctrine and a contradiction.

    Some other versions, like the Revised Version, the American Standard Version and the Contemporary English Version, have yet a different meaning than the others. They say: "EARNESTLY DESIRING the coming of the day of God", or "LOOKING FORWARD TO the day of God". While this rendering is different than the KJB, at least it doesn't teach the same false doctrine as do the RSV, ESV, NASB, NIV and NKJV.

    In what way then are we “hasting unto” the coming of the day of God, as the KJB and other Bibles say? Good question. I will give the answer as I understand it. It is really quite simple. Verse 8 of this same chapter states “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousands years as one day.” If you or I should live to be a hundred years old, that would be equivalent to less than two and one half hours of God’s time.

    We are here but a very short time and are all hastening unto the coming of the day of God.

    Psalm 90:4-6, “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood: they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.”

    Ps. 39:5, “Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth: and mine age is a nothing before thee.”

    Ps. 102:11 “My days are like a shadow that declineth: and I am withered like grass.”

    Job 4:20, speaks of man as, “They are destroyed from morning to evening”, Job 7: 6, “My days are swifter than a weaver’s shuttle”

    Job 8: 9 “For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow.” Job 9: 25, “Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away,” Job 14: 1, 2 “Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.”

    We are all hasting unto the day of God. Our time here is quickly over and we pass away. That day has already been appointed by God who put the times and the seasons in His own power, and nothing you or I do or don't do will change when it comes by one second.

    Or, can we, Larry? Please explain consistently from the Scriptures.

    Will Kinney
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Will J. Kinney: // ... explain for us how one can
    "speed" or "hasten" the coming of the day of God,
    as your favorite versions teach?//

    Yes, that is exactly what my favorite version
    teaches. Except it looks like the translators made
    a mistake. But you assume the KJV is correct, so
    you won't see the mistake. Just like i lassume that
    the MVs are correct and won't see any mistake.
    Anyway here is what the Holy Bible says:

    II.Peter III:12 (KJV1611):

    || Looking for and hasting vnto
    the comming of the day of God, wherein
    the heauens being on fire shalbe disolued,
    and the Elements shall melt with feruent heat.


    Sidnote: || Or, hasting the coming

    So what is the alternate?

    (A) || hasting the coming and hasting vnto
    the comming of the day of God, wherein
    the heauens being on fire shalbe disolued,
    and the Elements shall melt with feruent heat.


    || Looking for and hasting the coming
    of the day of God, wherein
    the heauens being on fire shalbe disolued,
    and the Elements shall melt with feruent heat.


    Whichever may be the case that the inspired translators
    inteneded, the idea that God is presenting is that
    we can hasten the comming of the day of God.

    Some Messianic Jews (3 in fact) that I have heard
    say that they believe when the Day of God begins
    at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection --
    that this will begin when the last gentile who is
    going to get saved gets saved. End of the their
    belief and on to mine: So if you go out
    witnessing to gentiles, you hasten the Day of God:
    when God shall interfer in the affairs of
    mankind once again - to save mankind from destroying
    themselves.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ah, then
    you are Universalist?
    Universalists believe that everybody will
    be saved some how (not specified) some
    where (not specified). This is because God
    wishes for everyone to be saved and
    sent Jesus to die on the cross to save
    everybody.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  9. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    First Will J. Kenney I would like to ask If you have actually read the preface to the 1611 KJB?
    If you have read it why would you not believe what the translators themselves said.Were they smart enough to do the translating but just to stupid to know they were inspired.
    The next thing I would Like to address Will is name calling and belittling remarks. If you look back anywhere on this board you will notice I do not engage in such activity.I believe all who are on this board are saved children of God. That makes us brothers and sisters in Christ.I do not have the nerve to call something names that God has saved and preserved. I love the King James Bible.I am strongly KJB preferred.I in no way belittle or devalue it.I also taking the translators word for what they wrote about themselves and thier work.I beleive that is reasonable.
    I think discussion and debate in a civil manor is good. We should remember we are children of the Almighty God not politicians.
     
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There's no error to say "strain OUT a gnat", either. After all, the subsequent verses of Matt.23 refer to cleansing the outside of containers, not ATTEMPTING to cleanse them.

    However, "strain AT a gnat" isn't wrong, either. To strain OUT a gnat, one must begin by straining AT it before the strainer actually reaches it.

    Will Kinney:The KJB is always right.

    Except where it's wrong.
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    On the subject of "hasting"-In Jonah, God had appointed a day to destroy Nineveh, but due to its people humbling themselves, He "repented of the evil" He'd intended for it. Remember, while Jesus was here, even He didn't know the date of His return. After all, God is almighty. Can't He change His dates as He chooses, especially when He hasn't proclaimed them?
     
  12. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2001
    Messages:
    741
    Likes Received:
    0
    Anybody else feel like they're banging their head against the wall? Will's Final Authority is his opinion and UNPROVEN conjecture. I'm sorry that you have chosen Anglicans as prophets and build theory on opinion, taste, and tradition. [​IMG]
     
  13. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro. Will ,
    I have seen your posts all over the place.I will be more than happy to address anything you wish to discuss in a friendly and civil manner.We can go over things point by poin or you can send me your laundry list. Any delay timewise will mean I am doing due diligence to your questions.I will not ignore you or belittle you. If I disagree with you I will tell you and tell you why.We may not end up agreeing&gt; Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and move on.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which text are you looking at?? "Through" is not a part of any text I know about. The text says oi diulizontes ton kwnwpa." The word "dioluzontes" is what is under discussion here. The word means to strain out or to filter out. Yes, good ahead and look it up if you don't think it's true. "Gnat" is an accusative of dialuzontes. It is the object that is being strained.

    Again, folks, I hate to burst your bubble but this discussion is about the word that Christ used and what it means.

    You guys treat the KJV as if it is the actual words of Christ. It is not. It is a translation of the words of Christ. This problem will only be solved by looking at what Christ said.

    You can't go making up points to support your doctrine.

    Based on the word that Christ used, the KJV does the worst job.

    True, but "not really bad" is not the same as "perfect." And if you argue that the KJV is the absolute perfect word of God, you have to explain why they changed what Christ said to something he did not say.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are no conflicting Bibles.

    They have been.

    No problem (although a modicum of study could have answered this problem for you without my help). To hasten the day of the Lord might mean to desire earnestly; it may mean to be involved in things such as evangelism which must take place before the DOL. There is no conflict. Peter is not in the least suggesting that the time itself may change.

    Acts 3:19-21 do suggest that man's response plays a part in the timing. That is undeniable even in your KJV. Acts 17:31 teaches that the time is fixed.

    So we view the command of Peter as anticipating the DOL with eager desire and obedience.

    See how easy it is just to believe the Bible rather than explaining it all away with doubt. In just a few words, I answered your long and inane post that was designed to cast doubt on the word of God and create confusion in the mind of the reader.

    Belief is always better.
     
  16. Jim Ward

    Jim Ward New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pastor Larry, can you read Luke 2:22 in the KJV and the niv and explain how they do not conflict since they cleary read differently?
     
  17. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is a site that might be of interest to all in this discussion: posted March 19, 2004 11:33 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here's a link to "The Translators Revived"

    http://www.wilderness-cry.net/bible_study/translators/
    I got it from Gayla bless her heart.
    It covers the history of the translators pretty well. By the way this info should be of interest to KJVO's as well as MV'ers.
    In addition briefly another site you all may want to add on your computers if you already have'nt is E-Sword. It is free and is full of Bible helps.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    How much study have you done into this?? I just picked up three commentaries of orthodox theologians, all of whom believe in inerrancy, and all three give a very easy and simple explanation. You come in here and ask about something that has long been answered. Why?? Why do you not study on your own??

    The first problem is that you have done the very thing your side despises. You have rejected the Majority text reading in favor of the minority.

    The explanation is simple and involves one of two options (or possibly both): !0 "They" refers to the couple together. Since Joseph and Mary were married, they together offered the sacrifice and Luke, writing a short summary includes the whole process; 2)It is quite likely that Joseph, having been present and likely helping at the birth was also defiled by virtue of coming into contact with the blood of birth. Therefore, they both needed to be cleansed, Mary from the childbirth and Joseph from touching blood.

    See how easy that is when you are not out to attack God's word? Belief is always better. And a little study never hurt anyone. You set out with a purpose to attack God's word. It was an unnecessary attack because the text makes perfect sense. All you needed to do was get past your presuppositions and trust that God knew what he was talking about.
     
  19. Jim Ward

    Jim Ward New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    448
    Likes Received:
    0
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would stay awake, Jim. It helps the learning process and enables you to avoid making this ridiculous charges about the truth of God's word.

    Belief is always better ...
     
Loading...