No greater love and limited atonement

Would someone please, in very clear and simple terms explain the difference between "sufficient" and "efficacious". From what I have gathered to this point in my life, it sure seems like a dance.

 

With a child, I would not put the decision in their hands as they are not old enough to truly understand their actions. This is why I do not believe small children go to hell when they die, because they cannot understand sin and damnation.

An adult is a different matter. I cannot control their actions. I can warn a person that it is dangerous to drive their car 100 MPH with bald tires. I could call the cops on them, but I cannot continuously watch them (nor could the police). If they continue this risky behavior, they could crash and kill themselves. I did all I could do to save them.

And this is what God told us to do, warn people. Now why in the world would God tell us to warn people if they cannot possibly repent? Does that make sense to you? It doesn't make a bit of sense to me. And if God has decided to regenerate them, then why would I need to warn them? That would be just as ridiculous.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Wow, God says here I can save another man's life by warning him that he will die because of his wicked ways. How can that be possible? I could warn him from now till eternity if your doctrine is true, but unless God regenerates him he cannot repent. And if God regenerates him I could try to talk him out of repenting, but he irresistably will.

You see, your doctrine makes no sense at all and does not match up with what the scriptures say. Warning a person only makes sense if the person has the ability to respond to the warning. That is the very definition of responsible, "able to respond". But you teach spiritually dead men are absolutely unable to respond. Therefore by definition they cannot be "responsible".

 

So God is unable to save everyone. He is weak. Again though, you are not understanding. God isn't obligated to save anyone except that He is a merciful God and has chosen to save.

You are punished for your sins. You are born with a sin nature and commit your own sins of which you are responsible for.

Are you saying God is weak and cannot save everyone if He chose to?[/quote] This is worse than watching a child fall in a pool and drown, it is equivalent to pushing them in, and then holding them under when they try to come up for air. [/quote]Giving somebody their just punishment is worse that watching a child drown. Well you do realize God is going to do this right. Many will be sent to hell by God for their sin.

Well, then you must be a universalist then. If God is so sick that he would send somebody to hell.

 

Again, hell is a place of punishment for the sins willfully committed. It's not a dangerous outcome we are being warned about and God would be mean to let us go there. Hell is a place that God sends the ungodly outside of Christ.

also, any man may call on the name of the Lord and be saved. they are "unable" because of their nature. Their nature is to not want to come to Christ. We have a sin nature to and that's why we sin. Also, the Bible teaches that men are unable to come. No man can come unless the father draws him. Now, we can argue weather all men are drawn or not, but that means that a person at some point is unable to come. Men on their own are not able to come without the power of God.

Yes, we should warn, but that's all we do. We tell other's about Jesus and leave the rest to God. Yes you are correct, you can warn him, but unless God changes him, he will never want to come to Christ.

 

Sufficient = enough power to cover every single sinner's sin that has ever existed.
efficient = only those that believe will the atonement cover.

 

You will not understand this, God is not able to save all men. He has done the one and only thing that can save men, give his Son as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. Nothing else could save us. But men must believe on Jesus to be saved, if a man refuses to believe God cannot save him.

This is not heresy, the scriptures show Jesus could not perform miracles and mighty works because of people's unbelief. This is absolutely scriptural.

Mark 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Does verse 6 say Jesus "would not" do mighty works? No, it says he "could there do no mighty work". And in verse 7 and in the parallel account in Matthew it shows why, because of their unbelief.

Matt 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Jesus gave his disciples power over devils to cast them out, but why could they not cast out the devil in the possessed boy? Unbelief.

Matt 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

God has determined to save men by faith in his Son Jesus. If men refuse to trust Jesus he cannot save them.

 

You have a weak god. He is unable to save all he wants to save. he is not sovereign. He can only save those that want to be save and is unable to save the rest. What a weak god!

God has determined that faith and believe to be prerequisites. It is God that determined that. It isn't that God was unable to save, but that he has determined that belief is required. that is why He couldn't do mighty works there. They people didn't believe. God has belief as requirement, so Jesus couldn't do any might works there because God determined that belief was a requirement, but because he didn't possess the ability. Otherwise, God is weak and not sovereign. He is unable to do something by a force outside of himself. You say He doesn't have the ability to save someone because of the person means that an outside force has power over God. That is not the God of the Bible.

 

It is not a matter of weakness, John the Baptist said God could raise up children to Abraham from the very stones. It is not that God lacks power, it is that men do not fulfill his requirement. It is like the movies, no ticket, you don't get in.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

What is God saying here? Does he have the power to save? Then why can't he save them?

To be saved you must trust Jesus. There is no other way.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee did not trust Jesus. He bragged about how good he was. He trusted in his own righteousness. His faith was not in God, it was in himself.

The publican on the other hand made no claim to salvation of himself. He knew and confessed he was a wicked sinner. But he had faith that God was very good and very merciful and cast himself upon God's mercy. This is faith, and his sins were forgiven.

Both men prayed to God, but only one was saved. Why? Because one man placed his faith in himself and trusted in his own righteousness, while the other placed his faith and trust in God.

Now you are agreeing with me. This is exactly what I said. It does not make God weak to require faith, but at the same time he cannot save a person without faith.

You are coming around. :thumbs:

 

Not true. We quote Scripture; it's you Calvinists who say it doesn't mean what is says. For instance in John 3:16 it's you Calvinist who say that the world doesn't actually mean the world.

BTW, when someone at my church starts talking Calvinism, they certainly aren't talking the Gospel that is in the bible. They are talking a system invented by man, plain and simple.

 

There, that's what I was saying. God has the power to save all, but made faith a requirement. God could have saved all and not made faith a requirement, but chose to make it a requirement. God still had the power to save everyone.

 

Um, you might want to be careful with what you say. From what I have seen, Calvinist are very much into the Scriptures and do a lot of study in the Scriptures. I don't agree with them on all the points, but to say that don't quote Scripture or that they don't like it when you quote Scripture is totally false.

 

Lots of folks quote scripture. Ever spend some time with a Jehovah's Witness? They can show you twenty verses they believe prove Jesus is not God. Of course, when you show them verses that prove that Jesus is God, they will change the meanings and definitions of words, just as Calvinists change terms like "all men" to men only some men, or "world" to mean only a few elect.

It is not enough to simply quote scripture, we are commanded to rightly divide the word of truth. You can pull verses out of context, or change the definitions of simple words to make the scriptures say anything you want it to say.

Ever see this one?

Laugh, but that is how lots of folks build doctrine, by pulling verses out of context to agree with their presuppositions, often ignoring many scriptures that absolutely refute it.

 

how to defeat calvinism;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OebZJzB7W_c

 

Hello Webdog,
Thanks for posting and seeking to respond on these threads. I would like to respond to some of the issues you raised. You said this:

We all agree that the bible alone is the God given rule of faith and practice.
When someone offers you a quote from godly men in church history who gathered together with open bibles to see what the bible teaches, why be so quick to dismiss what is offered to you from these pastors and teachers?

Webdog, you or I might not always understand or agree with a man made statement or teaching. However to ignore what other gifted pastors or teachers offer is to despise the gifted teachers God has given to His church.

Do you think that these men did not view the bible as our highest authority?
Of course they did. These "manmade" teachings view the same topics we discuss here on the BB. Why re-invent the wheel? Most in the church held to these teachings.....so take time to discuss the merits of the teachings,based on the verses offered,and if you need to give your scriptural reasons why you do not agree.

Most false teachers preface thier remarks with the ignorant phrase....
well my bible says...........as if all bibles did not say the same thing!

to say......all means all or world means world without seeking to understand what is meant in each case is not a serious attempt to come to truth./ Do you see what I am getting at?

Initially others are trying to help answer supposed difficulties.

If they look at your response and you mis-represent what is posted, little or no progress will be made.

Looking back over this thread, I think you will see examples of it.

 

How do you defeat Calvinism?

Easy, read the scriptures and don't get your doctrine from Youtube.

 

Then explain this verse:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The phrase "all men" is used twice in this verse and they are the EXACT same words in the Greek.

Calvinists teach that Adam's sin nature and the condemnation for being a sinner passed onto every man. You would interpret the first "all men" to mean every single person who has ever lived except Jesus.

So, wouldn't the second "all men" teach that the free gift of justification came upon every single man who ever lived as well?

Dig out that commentary!

 

No, I understand this verse perfectly and it is not teaching universalism whatsoever. You will never figure it out with Calvinist doctrine. I am not going to answer you until you tell me whether "all men" in this verse is the same EXACT words with the same EXACT meaning. And please explain if it means every man who has ever lived, or just a few elect.

Oh, and while you are at it, look at this verse.

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The phrase "all men" in 1 Tim 2:3 is the exact same words in Greek as used twice in Romans 5:18

Does this mean every single man who has ever lived, or just a few elect?

And if it is God's and Jesus's will that "all men" be saved, then why aren't 100% of mankind saved?

You Calvinists love to play word games, so you should get lots of enjoyment out of figuring these verses out.

I will be going soon, but I'll check back in a day or so to see how you did. Good luck.

 

Reading the posts of some, I never cease to be amazed at the folks who have such a man-centered God, who does our bidding and is bound to our whims and fancies. Stunning, just stunning. Open Theism may have died in name, but the remnants and its adherents are very present.

TCassidy, I've enjoyed your posts thoroughly. You know more than just Bible versions Always good to hear from you!