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Please explain:
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Paul is preaching to the idolatrous Athenians who had not heard the gospel before. Paul had just finished preaching this great message to these unsaved pagans. Now he tells them that God commands them, as He commands ALL men EVERY WHERE to REPENT.

It is your contention that God is commanding these men to do something that they are totally unable to do. God is so cruel and capricious that he is commanding these pagans, most of whom (in your opinion) are the non-elect, even after hearing the gospel and having the opportunity to repent, could not repent anyway for God has predestined them to an eternal torment in the Lake of Fire separated from Him for all eternity?
What a cruel God that makes a mockery of Christianity and all that Christ stands for in His infinite love!

 

Yes, but they dont have free will in the Salvation Process---and that's the rub to most people.

 

Tony can give his answer, but on your bolded parts, (1) God certainly asserts power and influence over the will of human beings, yet He gives them a choice, which leads to (2) God is going to destroy all who reject Him in the lake of fire.

 

Who is Tom Ball & Bob Willis....are they cousents to Old Mother MaCree?

 

By that definition then I would have a one way ticket to hell.

 

In the Arminian model - this is not God "doing nothing"

God So Loved the World that HE GAVE His only begotten Son -- yes really - John 3:16

God "came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

God "Draws all mankind unto Him" John 12:32

"I STAND at the door and knock -- IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door -- I WILL come in" Rev 3

To get to the point of "free will" for sinful fallen man- God does a lot of supernatural things.

======================

That may be "doing nothing" in the Cavlinist model - since in the texts above there is no "arbitrary selection" where God works to save some but not others -- but in the Arminian model it is "God doing something"

 

Robert, I really don't care if its logical or illogical.....it is the will of God that I stand by. God is by nature righteous & holy....his will will be done. He is not obliged to save anyone. Therefore I see my salvation as a very generous gift, one that I did nothing to deserve....and one I would never have had to take up had it been my choice.....therefore it is even more so a precious gift.

 

Which is how you "dig the hole deeper" when it comes to these Bible points exposing that flaw in Calvinism.

 

God was not required to offer the Gospel to the world - but once He sovereignly chose to do it - then He is obligated to make His Word "true".

Calvinism loves the idea that it might be able to go back in time before God made that choice as if to remind Him "Now Lord - remember you don't NEED to choose that" - but we are long past that point in time. He HAS chosen it - now we must all accept His choice.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Well He certainly is not active.....Rather He sits & waits for the creature to make the decision. Even though the creature is a marred & damaged being .....due to sin, you would have God sit & wait for sin soaked humans (so bad incidentally that they even crucified their savior) to make the final decision. Well I dont buy that.

And your also saying that he draws all mankind to Him then it stands to reason that "All Men are then saved" .....but all men are not saved because there is a hell & some go there. So how can this be that ALL MEN ARE SAVED?

This whole conversation reminds me of the story of a building on fire with the firemen & cops sitting as bystanders with bull horns yelling" anyone alive in there, just yell & we will come in and save you?" Well of course this scenario is ridiculous because the people inside may have been badly hurt or overtaken by smoke or heat or having a roof cave in. But you get my point!

 

Clearly, DHK, you need to read between the lines a little more and realize that "ALL men EVERY WHERE" simply means "ALL of the ELECT every where", since everyone knows Paul was a Calvinist. :smilewinkgrin:

It is funny how in none of those verses where it speaks of "all men" or "everyone" or "the whole world" in regards to those whom Christ gave his life for, that it's actually talking about "all men" or "everyone" or the "whole world". The Church had to wait 1500 years to learn what these descriptors truly meant --all in God's good timing, I guess :laugh: .

(But what do I know, I'm just a lowly Pelagian free will idolator :thumbs: )

 

Only when Calvin says so??
I believe the Bible, not Calvin. God is my authority. Who is yours?
He speaks to me through His Word, not through "The Institutes."
Do you think you need to get your priorities straight?

 

no matter what the Bible says to the contrary?

In the Arminian model - this is not God "doing nothing"

God So Loved the World that HE GAVE His only begotten Son -- yes really - John 3:16

God "came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

God "Draws all mankind unto Him" John 12:32

"I STAND at the door and knock -- IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door -- I WILL come in" Rev 3

To get to the point of "free will" for sinful fallen man- God does a lot of supernatural things.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]God who “who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth[/FONT]”.[FONT=&quot] 1Tim 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Holy Spirit “Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” John 16:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God “sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14

There is no such "World of only believers" or any such thing in the Bible when it comes to "God so Loved the World".

John 3 "God so Love the WORLD" -- "yes really"! not simply over-marketing.
John 1 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1 Tim 4:10 "10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Peter in Acts 10
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Behold I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in” Rev 3[/FONT]



=======================================

Step 1. First understand what Arminianism is.

Step 2. oppose something that is actually taught if you wish to oppose it.

Just making up a strawman of your own imagination to oppose is a game 'for one'.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]God who “who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth[/FONT]”.[FONT=&quot] 1Tim 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Holy Spirit “Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” John 16:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God “sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14

There is no such "World of only believers" or any such thing in the Bible when it comes to "God so Loved the World".

John 3 "God so Love the WORLD" -- "yes really"! not simply over-marketing.
John 1 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1 Tim 4:10 "10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Peter in Acts 10
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Behold I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in” Rev 3[/FONT]

only if you use circular logic of inserting Calvinism's definition of "Drawing" which is in truth 'arbitrary selection' -- but the Arminian reading of the text does not "first insert Calvinism" to render the text.

Draw does not mean "irresistibly force" in Arminianism - the way it does in Calvinism... and I think "all" knew that to start with.

simple. Don't "insert Calvinism" as "step 1".

in Christ,

Bob

 

No, EWF, I believe God does assert power and influence over us, and in our lives. I just don't believe He irresistibly forces us to do anything. God will repay. He will visit recompense on those who stand against Him. To my perspective, it is the no-free-will side that has to admit that, if mankind has no free will, then "those who stand against Him" were set up by Him with the express purpose of being destroyed by Him. My side believes that those people of their own accord stood against the Lord and wrought destruction on themselves.

This notion that man has absolutely no input in the process of salvation does not square with the scriptures. I don't believe man can do anything to save himself, but he can reject the offer of God and thereby find himself damned for eternity. But if man has no choice in the matter, then why did so many NT preachers say to those listening "Repent, and believe" or be baptized? Why did they say "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved," if that can't possibly be the case? The scripture itself posits a humanity with free will to openly accept or reject God.

Your own side of the argument is very quick to admit that man rejects God. But they never seem to want to admit the inverse to that argument: If man can reject God, then man must also be able to accept God.

EWF, I agree with you that my salvation is a precious, generous gift. But I know for a fact that I could have rejected it. I could have spurned God when He called my name. I could have gone against the scriptural teaching and quenched the Spirit. I'm thankful that my life has been full of Godly men and women who taught me that when God calls we should answer.

RW - I don't know a single free will believer who thinks God is obligated to do anything for us. It is through His grace, His mercy, and His longsuffering towards humanity that time goes on, the gospel is preached, and men and women are saved. To continually say we think God is obligated to us is nothing more than slandering the opposing side of the discussion.

 

You act as though only free will believers would ever think of boasting. Cannot the Calvinist likewise boast that he is better than his neighbor because God chose him and not his neighbor?

I don't know what free will believers you have been around, RW, but if I ever heard someone boasting about being better simply because they accepted the free gift of God, then I would be the first to call them out. We do not boast. If we believe scripture, then we recognize we are saved by grace through faith, not of any work, so that no man can boast. This is applicable to the free will believer as much as to the Calvinist.

By the by, I know you claim not to be a Calvinist, but I don't think I've ever met someone who holds to so much of the Cal doctrine without claiming Calvinism as his own. It's quite impressive.