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Non-Cals, what do you believe?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    Just Preachin' if you want...the g is missing for good reason...:laugh:

    Well at least a specific part of my belief. While I certainly affirm and appreciate the desire to know others and what they believe I might suggest wording the first question differently. You asked about the nature of the will...which I replied is free moral agency. If you want to know about depravity, you might ask it differently. (I mention this because you and others have answered along these lines...not being snooty I hope.) I believe mankind is fallen at birth through the sin condition passed on from Adam.

    I believe in general atonement insofar as it applies freely and ably to all mankind equally to receive the imputation of salvific justification through grace by faith. I don't believe in universalism or inclusivism and will slap with a fish anyone who suggests otherwise :tongue3:.

    While salvation is equally available to all it is only sufficient for those who make the volitional decision to accept God's grace on this side of eternity.
     
  2. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    The Lord Jesus Christ died, was buried, and rose again and is coming back again for the "whosoever will's"

    John 1:12 teaches, "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."
     
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    As long as you quote Scripture, I'm with you. :thumbs:
     
  4. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    I would not accuse you of universalism. I do believe general atonement is what many believe even if they have never thought it through. I know it is what I believed growing up.

    The most inconsistent position in my opinion is universal atonement where the Father is satisfied and forgives the sins of unbelievers but sends them to hell anyway.

    THe general position of course is a potential for all to be saved. I think most would say that all have equal chance to be saved.

    The reason the term general is important is that it covers sin generally, not for a specific person. It covers a specific person at the time of their belief.

    I do not hold to this position but I believe many general Baptists would.
     
  5. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    This is a misstatement of the position. The Father IS completely satisfied with the sacrifice of the Son because it is an infinite, perfect sacrifice for sin. However, forgiveness for sin is not applied to any individual apart from repentance and faith. The alternative view leaves sins unpaid for for all eternity and it leaves God's righteous wrath unsatisfied because there is no payment made for sins. This entails that Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was not infinite and was not perfect. If Jesus sacrifice on the cross is finite and imperfect, then NO ONE can be saved.
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Excellent :thumbs:
     
  7. Lux et veritas

    Lux et veritas New Member

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    This is a misstatement of the Calvinistic position also.
    The sins of the non-elect do not go unpaid for. They are punished upon the sinner in hell for eternity. Now whether you agree with the Calvinist's claim on this matter, is not the question. The question is you have not accurately stated the position.

    Then having wrongly (or at least, very poorly) stated this position, you draw a wrong conclusion when you say, "it leaves God's righteous wrath unsatisfied". Not at all. Because that wrath is rightly satisfied in the punishing of the sinner.

    All sin must and will be punished. Either at Calvary or in hell. Or as Augustus Toplady (author of Rock of Ages), wrote in another of his famous hymns,

    Payment God cannot twice demand,
    First at my bleeding Surety's hand, and then again at mine.


    Those who hold views contrary to the historic Christian (calvinistic) faith in regards to the extent of the atonement, are usually arguing that "it isn't fair". Toplady rightly takes those very words and turns them back on the illogical thinking of all such and says, Universal atonement followed by vast multitudes of sinners going to hell for sins that have already been fully paid for ... now THAT'S not fair!
     
  8. BaptistBob

    BaptistBob New Member

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    Who in the first 250 years of Christianity held that belief? Just name one.

    That's really odd thing to quote, since it does not touch what he said. He said that Christ is the perfect sacrifice, in which God is totally satisfied. It doesn't apply to anyone apart from faith.

    Romans 3:25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.

    God presented him---->as a sacrifice of atonement,<---through faith in his blood

    So the complaint that he died for the sins that have been paid for is mistaken. Christ's death provides the sacrifice for everyone. Not everyone appropriates it.
     
    #28 BaptistBob, Jul 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2009
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    People go to hell for unbelief.

    Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


    Atonement has to be made for all sin. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

    When atonement was made once a year for Israel, did that mean that every single Jew went to be with the Lord when he died? Did that atonement secure the salvation of every Jew?

    The answer of course is no. OT salvation was the same as today, by grace through faith. The blood of an animal was shed (until Christ, the perfect sacrifice came) for the sins of the people, but not all people were saved. Did that make the atonement of none affect? No. The blood was shed, the atonement was made, but salvation came by faith in that atonement which appeased God's wrath against sin.

    Today Jesus is that atonement, but only those who put their faith in Him will be saved. Salvation has never changed since Adam fell. It comes by the shed blood of an acceptable sacrifice and faith in God by the one whom the blood was shed for.


    If you don't understand the OT atonement for ALL of Israel, it's no wonder you don't understand it under the New Covenant.
     
    #29 Amy.G, Jul 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2009
  10. BaptistBob

    BaptistBob New Member

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    Excellent.

    And those would would criticize you and falsely accuse you of universalism, yet they actually believe that there are some for whom Christ has already paid the penalty but don't yet beleive and still need to be forgiven. They take one ascpect of their own theology and project it upon you, yet the oddity they poject upon you is actually theirs.
     
  11. Lux et veritas

    Lux et veritas New Member

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    You have made such a powerful argument for Calvinism, that I really would like to use it in my class. I wonder if you actually see the 'limit' to the OT atonement you have just spoken of?
     
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I think you'll have to explain it to me. :laugh:
     
  13. Lux et veritas

    Lux et veritas New Member

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    I've read this sentence over and honestly don't understand what you are saying. It doesn't appear to have anything to do with what I said. I didn't say that Christ died for sins that have been paid for. I did quote Augustus Toplady who said, that if a sinner is in hell paying the penalty of his sins, and Christ already had paid that penalty, then he (the sinner) would be paying for something the God had already accepted payment for.

    And THAT would make God unfair ... which interestingly is the same accusation that the Arminian (whether they want to wear the label or not) makes.
     
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    The sinner is in hell because he refused to believe in Christ as the only sacrifice for his sins. This is the one sin that is unforgivable.


    Nite all........:sleep:
     
  15. Lux et veritas

    Lux et veritas New Member

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    Is unbelief a sin? It must be if people go to hell for it.

    You say Christ died for ALL the sins of ALL people for ALL time? I'm am really not trying to be facetious here, but in all seriousness, then I ask this.

    Did Christ die for the sin of UNBELIEF? Because if He did, you have a real dilemma. If He did not, you have a different one, in that you have to admit that there is at least ONE sin( or cateogory of sin) for which He did not pay the penalty.

    This was a question that I had to wrestle with many years ago when I was moved by the Lord out of the dispensational / arminian theological 'camp' into the reformed one.
     
  16. BaptistBob

    BaptistBob New Member

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    I worded it poorly. I meant to say that no one is going to hell with their sins having been paid for. If someone makes that argument, I would have to talk to them and see why they say that.

    They didn't go to hell and pay for something paid for. You are making the accusation by quoting Toplady, not the Arminian. When does an Aminian say "God is unfair"? I explained why you are wrong about the accusation, which the Arminian is NOT making, but YOU are putting in others' mouths.

    http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1431539&postcount=28

    Now, if someone does make the argument that Christ died for people's sins, but people rejected it and went to hell even though Christ died for their sins, I might be able to find a reason to argue with them, depending upon what they mean by the words. However, no one will say "God is unfair."

    Show me an Arminian making the accusation that God is unfair.
     
    #36 BaptistBob, Jul 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2009
  17. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Ah, so Christ did not make a perfect sacrifice.
    There was one sin He left up to us.
    One sin that we may boast by not committing.
    One deed that we can do to earn that last measure of our salvation.

    Amy, it seems you believe in a limited atonement, one that does not atone for all sins, though it atones for some of the sins of all the people.
     
  18. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Christ did in fact die for all people for all times. And there is no delimma with which to even consider

    The propitiation of Christ is not applied to anyone except through faith (Rom 3:25). The sin of unbelief IS atoned for but that atonement will not be imparted against that sin of unbelief unless by faith you receive the propitiation that has completely satisfied God. Remember, the gospel message is the power of God unto salvation and that through faith. If one chooses not to believe then what is left for them but damnation.

    If man is condemned for not believing then it is only logical to ackowledge that salvation is for all men and thus the propitiation was in deed for all men everywhere, through faith. Otherwise it makes little to no sense when scripture speaks of being condenmed or damned for not believing or not recieving (in the active sense - not the passive).

    Thus 'unbelief' sends them to hell because they have chosen to reject the true sacrifice which has already satisified God, but by not believing they have chosen to pay the penalty some other way.
     
    #38 Allan, Jul 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2009
  19. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Wrong Dale.
    It atones for them ALL but unless you believe the propitiation will not and can not be applied to anyone - that includes the elect. Therefore unbelief is the 'sin' that condemns man at the judgment because he has choosen not to believe or place his faith in one true sacrifice that has alreadybeen made and appeased the wrath of God against it. And so they choose to atone for their sin some other way.
     
  20. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Lux ex veritas said
    A single sin against God is a capital crime against God deserving of eternal punishment. If a person committed only one sin in their life, they could not, even if they spent eternity in hell, recompense God for their offense. How much less can a person repay God who sins multiple times. Therefore, if God sent everyone to hell for all eternity, he would never be repaid for even a single sin, much less all of the sins that have been committed. So, the sinner cannot repay God for His sin. Herein is the beauty of Jesus' sacrifice. He, through a one-time offering of Himself for sin, satisfied God's righteous justice against sin for all eternity. When Jesus said "It is finished", he meant it! And he meant it in a way that 5-point Calvinism contradicts and cannot acknowledge.
     
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