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Norm Geisler on Caner

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Paul33, Jul 1, 2010.

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  1. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    By extreme Muslims, Geisler is referring to a 20 year old college student in London, Mohamed Khan. Mo made the charge that Caner is a fake ex-Muslim because Caner's knowledge of Islam is highly deficient. Caner has confused the simplest Muslim acts, such as the Shahada, prompting Mo to make this charge. Most of Caner's critics have not questioned his claim to have been a Muslim. But again, any research into Caner's statements reveals a man who was nominally Muslim, at best. He was also raised by a Lutheran mom. Does that make Caner an ex-Lutheran?

    Caner did make this statement. His "I never intentionally misled anyone" statement is on par with Clinton's "I never had sexual relations with that woman" in terms of parsing the truth. Caner made more than several misstatements over the past decade; he made outright intentional lies to propel him into the limelight of circuit preaching. He continues to lie as evidenced six months ago in his sermon in Gatlinburg, TN where he claimed to learn English as an adult.

    Emir is also a co-author with his brother and was himself propelled to the presidency of Truet-McConnell College on the basis of the same false background as Ergun. He may have been in the best position to know all the facts of his brother's background, which makes one wonder why he didn't speak up when his brother stated in his presence that he was born in Instanbul, Turkey.

    Emir forgot to state that extreme non-Calvinists are also "attacking" his brother. It isn't just extreme Muslims and extreme Calvinists that are involved.

    Emir and Geisler run on the claim that Ergun was accused of not being an ex-Muslim. But the truth is, Ergun and Emir were barely Muslims. The court ordered that they were to be raised in the Muslim faith of their father. Were they? Based on their lack of knowledge of basic Islam, probably not so much. But the real truth is that whatever the original charge, Ergun has a problem with lying and misrepresenting who he is. The "few incorrect statements" are too numerous to repost here. The falsehoods are not only embellishments, but outright lies.

    So Liberty reaffirms what most of us knew about Caner. He was a Muslim who converted as a teen. Not unlike a Lutheran boy or Catholic boy converting as a teen to evangelical Christianity. For most of Caner's critics, this point was never in doubt. This reaffirmed truth will become the basis of the claim that Caner was exonerated.
     
    #81 Paul33, Jul 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2010
  2. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Correct. As far as one can tell, Caner did not lie in his Kregel titles about his biographical information. These books form the basis of comparing Caner's written comments to his public comments in sermons and speaking engagements. In other words, these books are the reason we know that Caner is lying in his public comments.

    If Caner's testimony is that he was a Muslim and he converted to Christianity as a teen, then his testimony is completely true. If Caner's testimony is that he came to America in 1978 believing that Christians hated him, because he had never met Americans before, then his testimony is not completely true. Caner has built his reputation on a testimony of lies and deceit in which he paints himself as an extreme Muslim preparing to do that which was done on 11 September. He intentionally misled his audiences and continues to do so, claiming recently that he learned English as an adult. His testimony is far from being completely true.

    I rejoice too that God saves sinners. I rejoice that the Caner brothers were saved! I am grateful that God uses sinners and mistake-prone men, even me. I do not rejoice in lies, misrepresentations, and falsehoods. I do not rejoice in a refusal to confess sin and repent.

    Does Caner's revilement of "extreme" or "hyper" Calvinists fit within the context of "He has always spoken words of grace to others"? The claim that he is not being shown grace is false. Those who are encouraging him to repent of sin are the ones showing him grace. They are pleading with him to avail himself of God's grace. Those who are encouraging him to hide behind lawyerly words like "misstatements," "discrepancies," "factual statements that are self-contradictory," and "moral intent" are keeping Caner from God's amazing grace and the forgiveness that follows.

    Even King David was a good man with a heart for God. David also committed adultery and murdered a man to cover it up. But when confronted with his sin, he repented. I would submit that truly good men confess their sins when they are confronted by others.

    So Caner has misspoken and given factual statements that are self-contradictory, but he did so without the moral intent to deceive. Therefore, Caner is not a liar.

    But Caner's testimony of being a Muslim didn't take off until after 9/11. In fact, Caner gives the appearance of one who was distancing himself from his Muslim background. Only after 9/11 did E. Michael Caner become Ergun "Mehmet" Caner. And the deception began. His intentionally misleading statements in sermons at FBC Jacksonville and Prestonwood Baptist Church snowballed into the Ergun Caner that we know today. A man who learned English as an adult. A man who lived in majority Muslim countries. A man who came to America as a teen to do that which was done on 11 September. A devout Muslim who doesn't know the difference between the Shahada and the first two verses of the Qoran.

    When the statements by Caner are extrapolated from their contexts and isolated, they are then easily manipulated. But when you listen to the statements in context (the truth), then one can readily see the deceptions and falsehoods. So Geisler must excise the statements from their context. He then quickly argues the "misstatements" away as unintentional factual statements that are self-contradictory. Something we all do. But I doubt very highly that any one who is not trying to deceive would ever mix up his or her place of birth.

    It looks like Geisler and Holden are preparing the way for Caner to join Veritas Evangelical Seminary. How ironic that a person prone to intentional falsehoods would join a seminary with the name Veritas.

    Sadly, Tim Rogers is more right than wrong. LU, intentionally or not, has left the door open for this type of interpretation. Caner was a Muslim who converted to Christianity as a teen. He made some misstatements. There were discrepancies. But the statement does not deal with the issue of intentional sin. So LU is culpable. Most likely, they were just trying to protect themselves from an employment related lawsuit. They never used the "L" word.
     
    #82 Paul33, Jul 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2010
  3. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    I am curious as to why Paul33 is commenting on his own posts?

    Paul what class or classes did you teach at LU? When did you teach these?
     
    #83 John Toppass, Jul 10, 2010
  4. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    What are you talking about. I was a student at LU.

    I posted a document so that I could comment on it.
     
    #84 Paul33, Jul 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2010
  5. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    Paul33,
    I am sorry that you feel you have to attack my name (which I am not ashamed of) This makes me think we have a 2ND or 3RD grader posting. But none the less you are forgiven, even before you ask.

    I was referring to this post made by you.

    Posted by Paul33 on 12/15/07 8:pM

    Baptist Board.com > Baptist FELLOWSHIP Forums (Baptist Only) > Baptist Colleges / Seminaries

    LU Distance Learning Enrollment Tops 20,000
    --------------------------------------------------------
    "I'm a prof at LU in the religion department.

    I am also a prof at CCU teaching business, ethics, history, and Bible.

    I'm also a church planter.

    I'm also working on certification for public school teaching."


    I guess Caner is not the only one with this type of problem. Of course, it is only fair to give you a chance to respond to which of your posts are untruths.
    Can I assume that you want to be judged in the same manner that you judge?
     
    #85 John Toppass, Jul 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2010
  6. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Civility, brothers, civility please.
     
    #86 Major B, Jul 12, 2010
  7. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    I am not sure what the argument is here, but if you think that people cannot achieve in several areas, I differ. My personal "resume" includes:

    1. 20.5 years in the USAF, 8 as a toolbox carrying troop and tweleve as an officer.
    :laugh:
    2. I have fully-accredited degrees in History, Social Sciences, Religion, and International Relations. I had enough math courses so that I am certified 5-9 in Math, and have taught a year in that field.

    3. Since retiring from the USAF, I have worked as a fully-time pastor, a factory maintenance messenger, and have taught over 12 different subjects in public and private schools.

    4. I am a National Board Certified Teacher of Social Studies.

    5. I was an interim pastor for 14 months.

    6. My wife and I have spent the last 10 years working part time as nouthetic counselors, and we have counseled over 500 people in that time period.

    7. I make hardwood furniture for a hobby.

    8. I play with my three grandchildren.:laugh::smilewinkgrin:

    9. I have discipled several young men who are now full time in the ministry and others who are working on it.

    Busy? Naaaa! Looking for something else to do!:sleeping_2:
     
    #87 Major B, Jul 12, 2010
  8. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    Soundsl like a good start! :thumbsup:
     
    #88 John Toppass, Jul 13, 2010
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Conclusive enough?

    http://www.witnessesuntome.com/caner/Acar_Caner_Naturalization_duplicate-compressed.PDF

    http://blog.witnessesuntome.com/2010/07/caner-out-age-2-immigration-proven-yet.html


    In light of the biographical sketch based on legal documentation, many statements made by Dr. Ergun Caner cannot be accurate. Some examples of the statements made by Dr. Caner, which are believed to be the "factual statements that are self-contradictory" which Liberty University refers to:
    • Coming to America in 1978
    • Coming to America in 1979
    • Learning about America by watching television in Turkey
    • Moving to America at age 13
    • Moving to America at age 15
    • Living in Turkey along the Iraqi border for "most of my life"
    • Always living in majority Muslim countries before coming to America
    • Being disowned and becoming a "church orphan" after converting to Christianity
    • Being born in Istanbul, Turkey
     
    #89 Grasshopper, Jul 15, 2010
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Those statements of Caner's don't look like mere garbled language. And he said his contradictory statements for almost a decade. How Geisler and his other apologists can deny the evidence is sinfully stupid. Dr. Geisler has completely lost his credibility in his chosen field of speciality.

    Geisler is not being a real biblical friend of Caner's now.

    How anyone can claim that Caner apologized is wrong. He has been feeding Geisler his excuses. A Liberty student, shortly before Caner's official demotion was announced said that the latter spent some time maintaining his innocence in the whole matter.

    Ergun Caner will not own up to his lies. Liberty, unfortunately is not helping him. Caner's supporters are not his real friends -- Christian bloggers who have exposed this mess are better allies.

    Ergun Caner needs to come clean --soon. He has made Christianity a laughingstock. If he dares to step into a pulpit he better confess right then and therte. Unfortunately he'll still be in a classroom saying who knows what.

    This whole mess could have ended long ago if he had humbled himself.
     
    #90 Rippon, Jul 15, 2010
  11. John Toppass

    John Toppass Active Member
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    As I have said many times, I am not a Caner fan nor supporter. If I were in a position to help Ergun with his discretions, I would. I do not feel that God would want me to keep up the bellyaching that is going on by folks who do not even have a dog in the hunt.

    Christianity can not be made a laughing stock by Ergun Caner but, if he could, it would be no more than those who proclaim Christianity and keep kick a Bro. while he is down. If that is the course of action that a Christian should take, then please show me some scripture/s that I must have missed.
     
    #91 John Toppass, Jul 26, 2010
  12. William Price

    William Price New Member

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    Brethren, please let me be straight forward on this situation. Caner is a professing Christian who has been caught in sin. Brethren have went to him in accordance with Bible language, and he has yet to repent. Liberty University has not exercised proper biblical discipline, in that they may have removed this man from the presidency, but are still continuing him on staff. Thomas Road Baptist has also failed to exercise godly church discipline in this manner.

    Until such time as this happens, I hold these three entities in prayer that they repent of all their sins and turn back to God. But, for Caner to continue as if nothing has happened makes me question whether God actually did save him.
     
    #92 William Price, Jul 30, 2010
  13. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Your language reminds me Mt. 18 and what should be done but it also makes me wonder if he fits into Mt. 7:15-23, "15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

    Prov. 29:1, "A man who hardens his neck after much reproof Will suddenly be broken beyond remedy."

    God has a way of humbling those who will not humble themselves.
     
    #93 gb93433, Jul 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2010
  14. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    I agree 100%. It is, however, my understanding that even though Caner has been kept on as faculty, he is not teaching any classes this fall. I don't know if that is connected to the investigation/demotion or not but if it is correct it is interesting. It is very possible that he was already scheduled not to teach this fall and it just so happens to go along with the investigation and his demotion. We should also take note that Caner's twitter page has been dead since his demotion. Again, don't know that it is connected but it sure is interesting. My prediction is that Caner will leave Liberty University within the next year or so. He will probably be hired as the president of a small seminary or college. Thats my expectation anyway. And, despite what anyone may say publicly, I can't imagine many at Liberty University will be sad to see him go.
     
    #94 Martin, Jul 30, 2010
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I see the sharks are still feeding.Interesting
     
    #95 Revmitchell, Jul 30, 2010
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  16. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    And I see the Ostriches still have their head in the sand :)

    Couldn't resist that one :)
     
    #96 Dale-c, Jul 31, 2010
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    And do you still maintain the absurd fiction that theological liberals are at fault in exposing his serial lying?
     
    #97 Rippon, Aug 1, 2010
  18. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    It shows us how evil is allowed to propagate through those who are in the church who allow evil to reign unchecked. We must remember who Hitler started with in his plan of destruction and who stood against him. We must remember how Keil and Delitzsch were treated by the local church as well. It is not a battle against conservatives and liberals. It is a battle of the mind and soul within those who claim to be in the right camp, who sit and passively watch and do nothing by their support of sin being accomplished by their inaction and unwillingness to do anything. In essence it is the arm chair theologian doing good things who does not really know God. They just think they know God, because they are doing good things but not what God has called them to.
     
    #98 gb93433, Aug 1, 2010
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