Not under law but under grace.

God tells Cain "Sin is at your door you must master it" and punish Cain for murder.

Moses tells us in Genesis 6 and 7 that the clean animals went into the ark by sevens. And that Noah sacrificed to God from among just the clean animals in Gen 9.

Idolatry is wrong - yes even before the flood.

Dishonoring parents -- wrong even before the flood.

The Sabbath IS in fact the 7th day of creation week according to Gen 2 and Exodus 20.

When God speaks of "His commandments, Statutes and laws" we can believe that they were known.

I do not believe they had any of the ceremonial Lev 23 annual feast days until Sinai.

I do not believe that the civil laws for the nation of Israel existed prior to Sinai.

in Christ,

Bob

 

HP: Could you define civil law for us and possibly show us what you see as an example of it in relationship to the nation of Israel?

 

We are not under the death penalty of the law. We are certainly not to sin because we are not under the death penalty of the law as we read in v.15..

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

And what is sin except going against the Law of God?

We must also remember that there are different kinds of OT laws...
Ceremonial - fulfilled in Christ totally, so no longer used.
Moral - as summed up in the 10 commandments, still in use as it is eternal since it has to do with God's character.
Civil/judicial - still to be referred to in terms of general equity, but not strictly.

 

Wow. Interesting thread. I am not sure exactly where my understanding fits in.

However, I will start by challenging this material from DHK (nothing personal, despite our past differences...:laugh: ).

I think that Paul has been largely misunderstood in respect to his use of the terms "law" and "works". In the specific case of Romans 11:6 I do not think that Paul is setting "grace" against "good works", even the "good works of Torah" as I understand DHK to be saying.

I think that in Romans 11:6, Paul is saying that justification is not a matter of possessing Torah (being ethnically Jewish) but is instead a matter of grace. I will not try to explain what I think Paul means by grace. My main point is that he is not setting grace against anything like "good works" - he is setting grace against being in possession of Torah.

There is a lot that can be said in defence of this position. For now, I will draw the reader's attention to the context - Paul is talking about Israel, about how, despite their general rejection of their Messiah, that rejection is not universal - Jews can indeed be saved. By the time he gets to verse 6 and is talking about a remnant from Israel, it makes a lot of sense to see him as saying the following in verse 6 (my paraphrase of course):

"Since this remnant has been chosen by grace, it cannot have been chosen by ethnicity - by possession of Torah for if it were, grace would no longer be grace"

Note the continuity - from verse 1 through to verse 12, Paul is specifically talking about Israel. If one parachutes oneself in at verse 6 with an a priori commitment to see Paul as setting grace against "good works" or "moral self-effort", one creates a situation where Paul becomes a very schizophrenic writer - inserting such a general item of theology about how all humans are or not justified into the middle of an argument that is clearly about Israel. I think Paul shows himself to be a much better writer than that.

The better reading is that, in verse 6, Paul is talking about those elements of the Torah that demarcated the Jews from the pagans, such things as circumcision, the Sabbath, and the purity laws. I do not believe he is dealing with the issue of "trying to earn one's justification by doing good works".

 

HP: Excellent point. :thumbs: “Sin is the transgression of the law.” No law, no transgression. If transgression was possible before Moses received the ten commandments, it is proof that law existed. Again, law is simply a rule of action with sanctions.

 

1. Paul was writing to the believers in Rome, of which some may have had a Jewish background, but not many. The church no doubt would be made up of Gentile Christians. Either way one must keep in mind that the entire epistle was written to Christians.

2. Context is important as you say, so let's look at it.

Romans 11:5-7 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Notice these statements, explanations, and rhetorical questions are all directed to believers. The entire epistle to the Romans is a theological treatise on soteriology--addressed to the church in Rome.

Paul points out in verse five that there is a remnant according to grace. For by grace are you saved. That is the only method of salvation--by grace through faith (Eph.2:8,9), and it is reiterated here. Works has nothing to do with it.
Paul reiterates the same thing again in verse six, in one of the clearest verses in the Bible. He says that salvation is all of grace. If works are involved it is not of grace. Grace is cancelled out if any works are involved whether they be of the Torah or otherwise it doesn't matter. Look for OT evidence. Here it is:

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Man cannot be saved through his good works. They fail in the sight of God. He sins, and continually so. His righteousnesses, as good as they may seem to him to be, are but filthy rags in the sight of God. Why? Because grace and works are at opposite poles of each other. They cancel out each other. If works are involved there is no grace. The very definition of grace--God's free unmerited favor--means no works.
That definition is found in Romans 11:6 and in the dictionaries.

In verse seven he continues to speak to the believers in Rome about Israel.
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

The elect (as all elect are) are saved by grace.
The rest (of Israel) are blinded. Why? Because they rejected the Messiah and continue to follow a religion based on works. Works cannot save. No religion based on works can save. Works have one purpose and only one purpose--they show that man is a sinner, and in so doing show him that he needs a Saviour pointing Him to Christ. The epistle is written to Christians.

Works cancel out grace. It is either all of grace or it isn't by grace at all. You can't have both.

 

Read John chapter 8. The Jews claim Abraham as their father. Now go back and read Genesis chapters 12 and 20. Twice Abraham sinned against the leader of a nation in much the same way. He deceived them in letting them know that his wife was his sister instead of his actual wife, thus implying that she was eligible for marriage. He didn't trust in God's grace for protection. Both times these leaders: the Pharaoh of Egypt and the King of Gerar, rebuked Abraham. Abraham had violated their customs, and had put them in a position where they may have sinned not only against Abraham and his God, but also against their own laws. The Egyptians of that time, and the King of Gerar had laws. They were nations that had governments and laws that their people had to abide by. This was in the time of Abraham. Law existed long before Moses.

 

Laws about owning slaves, transferring property, adopting a deceased brother's wife etc.

 

I am not saying that no other nation had civil laws - I am saying that God's civil laws for Israel were not in effect for Abraham. Laws regarding slaves, transfer of land etc.

But moral law of God was always there and was dimly reflected in the descendants of Noah -- even to the point of the nations surrounding Abraham.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I agree with this but I would point out that according to Gal 3 Paul says "salvation was never by LAW".

The OTsaints of Heb 11 were "saved by Grace" because there is no such thing as "salvation by law".

They had one sin problem -- sinful nature -- OUR same problem.

They had ONE solution - the Gospel -- our same solution.

Their forms of worship may have been different but the basics were the same.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are merely re-stating your position on 11:6 here, not refuting my counterargument that Paul is not setting "good works" against grace but is rather setting "possession of Torah" - being Jewish - against Torah. To be fair, I do not really argue my position about this. Instead I made the point that your construal is somewhat implausible because it has Paul inserting something in verse 6 of Romans 11 that does not fit with the context.

I will assert that same thing with respect to Ephesian 2:8-9. Paul is not setting "grace through faith" against "good works" as if he were addressing Pelegianism. He is setting grace and faith against being ethnically Jewish.

In defense of my assertion here, I ask the reader to consider what Paul then goes on to say in Eph 2:11 and 12:

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Paul is not talking about how it is grace and not "good works" that save, he is talking about salvation through being a member the true covenant family as set against the "false" covenant family - a family whose criteria for memberships is the "works" of Torah.

Paul indeed says that the members of the true family are saved by grace through faith. But he does not set this against "good works" at all.

In fact, Paul is quite clear - works are indeed the grounds on which you will be granted eternal life (Romans 2:7 and 2:13):

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

I will go into what I believe it menas to "obey the law" in the context of verse 13. For the present purposes, verse 7 alone is enough reason to question the "grace and not good works" construal of Romans 11:6 and Ephesians 2:8-9

 

This is not an argument for your "grace and not works" position any more than it is an argument for my "grace and not possession of Torah" position.

All these statements work perfectly well with my interpretation of Romans 11:6 (and of Ephesians 2:8-9 for that matter). The fact that all these things are true does not mean that works are not a factor in our ultimate justification.

What kind of sense can I be talking here since these texts seem to so clearly imply that no one has good enough "works" to be justified? If I may say, I am talking "Spirit sense". As Paul explains in Romans 8, God gives the believer the Spirit and it is the Spirit that enables the believer to exhibit the works by which he will be justified. They are not the believer's own works, they are the works of the Spirit.

In fact, in Romans 10:6, Paul quotes from a covenant renewal passage in Deuteronomy 30:

Now what I am commanding you today (***by context, keeping God's commands) is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Paul is saying that in Christ, the covenant has been renewed and now, through the Spirit, we can indeed exhibit works that justify.

Paul means what he says in Romans 2:7 - people will be justified by their "persistence in doing good". He explains how this is possible in Romans 8.

 

GE

DHK, you actually addressed Trustitl here! No harm!

 

Romans 6 has been quoted several times. I particularly like this translation which takes into account the Hebrw understandings of important words.

1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in The anointed one, Jesus.

2For the teaching of the breath of complete fullfillment in Christ Jesus has set you free from the teaching of missing the mark and of death.

3For what teaching could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own offspring who is like Him in the likeness of flesh that continually misses the mark. He came as an offering for our missing the mark and He condemned those things in the flesh,

4so that the requirement of the teachings might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the breath of life.

5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the breath of life, the things of that life.

6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the breath of life has life and complete satisfaction and fullfillment,

7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the teachings of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the breath of life, if indeed the breath of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the breath of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of missing the mark, yet our life continues because of staying on the path.

11But if the breath of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His breath who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--

13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the beath of life you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14For all who are being led by the breath of God, these are His childen who are like Him.

15For you have not received a wind of slavery leading to feelings of danger again, but you have received a wind of adoption as offspring by which we cry out, "My Daddy who gives strength to the family!"

16The breath of God Himself testifies with our breath that we are children of God,

17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with the anointed one, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the children of God who are like Him.

20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the God’s breath, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Our Victory in Christ
26In the same way the breath of God also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to plead a cause as we should, but the breath of God within us intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

27and He who searches the authority within us knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who have strong intimate feelings toward God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of the one who is like Him, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

32He who did not spare His own offspring, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

35Who will separate us from the strong intimate feelings, provission and protections of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who given us intimate feelings and provided and protected us.

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the provission and protection of God, which is in Christ Jesus our master.

 

I would actually like to believe this interpretation of Romans 2:14-15, but I think that there are reasons to doubt it.

I think that this "writing of the law onto the heart" is specifically a covenant renewal promise that is fulfilled only with the giving of the Spirit. So while I do not necessarily deny that, from the time of Adam, men knew right from wrong, I do not think this passage can be used to make that case:

Note what Paul goes on to say in verse 28 of the same chapter:

A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code

And we have this material, clearly about covenant renewal, from Jeremiah:

The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

I add the following as an after-thought: I suspect that some of you will object that the Jeremiah passage is about Israel and not the Gentiles. So how can it be relevant to Romans 2:14-15? The answer, I believe, lies in Paul's "re-definition of the "true Israel" as per Romans 9 and perhaps elsewhere. I think that in the Jeremiah text, Paul is talking about the "true" Israel -consisting of both Jew and Gentile.

 

We are not justified at all by our own works.
We are justified only by the work of Christ (passive and active).
Justification is God forgiving sinners and treating them as if they had never sinned. It takes place at the moment of salvation, it is not something that needs to be "worked out."

The only reason that works are tied to justification at all is as evidence of real faith. When we truly have faith that leads to salvation, we will grow in our sanctification and begin doing good works by the power of the Holy Spirit. These works are an outworking of our justification, not a factor that gives us justification. We do good works because we are justified, not to become justified.

Paul does not teach that we don't need good works, he teaches that we don't need them for our justification. We certainly need them as evidence of our justification. So James 2:24 rightly says...

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Our works are evidence of our faith....they allow us to "see" that a person is justified.

 

HP: If our works are evidence of our faith, I would say that it is apparent there are many deceived, some even on this list. We are told over and over by some on this list that we all still sin and are liars. If this is indeed true, just how do these works prove anything other than one is a confused sinner, thinking they are saved when indeed in reality their works prove differently?

 

Just because our works are evidence of our faith, doesn't mean that our works must be perfect. Anybody who claims Christ and is not growing in sanctification must seriously question their salvation. And all claiming Christ and not growing in sanctification must not be thought of as Christians by the visible Church.

We must also remember that God judges the heart...it is we who are called to judge by works as we can't know another's heart...or even our own as it is so deceitful.

 

HP: How good must they be to show evidence of regeneration and justification? Are you now telling us that our works do not have to be consistent with our faith, and that we are justified in spite of whether or not they are sinful or benevolent? Help me out here. I certainly do not wish to misrepresent your views or the views of others.

 

It's not a matter of how good they must be...there's not a standard measure of good for everyone to show once they are saved.

Before regeneration the works are nothing but sinful. After regeneration they start being good by the Holy Spirit. This will manifest itself in different ways in different people, but for instance...one may stop cursing, abusing alcohol, lying, being violent, etc. etc. The Lord doesn't remove all of the sin from a person until the other side of glory as we have only partook of the first resurrection (of the spirit), and are still waiting for our bodily resurrection. But our sins will lessen as our sanctification grows by God's grace. There will be evidence in a saved person that they have turned from sin and to Christ.

Are works will be perfectly consistent to our faith because it is the evidence of our faith. There is a direct connection...but it's not to earn our justification.

And yes, we are justified in spite of our sin. We are dead in our sins and transgressions until God regenerates us we are born again. We were reconciled to God by Christ while we were still His enemies (Rom 5:10)