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NSA Wiretap Program Must Stop

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Magnetic Poles, Aug 17, 2006.

  1. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    Federal judge rules NSA wiretap program unconstitutional. Says it violates free speech and privacy. She ordered an immediate stop to warrantless wiretaps.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14393611/
     
  2. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    This decision will be overturned in due course.
     
  3. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    http://levin.nationalreview.com/

    There are four things that strike me most about Taylor’s opinion. First, she grants standing to such plaintiffs as the ACLU, CAIR, Greenpeace, National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, Christopher Hitchens, and others, without a shred of information showing any connection between the plaintiffs’ assertions of constitutional violations and any harm to them. However, Taylor reveals herself in this excerpt from her ruling:

    "… [T]he court need not speculate upon the kind of activity the Plaintiffs want to engage in – they want to engage in conversations with individuals abroad without fear that their First Amendment rights are being infringed upon. Therefore, this court concludes that Plaintiffs have satisfied the requirement of alleging “actual or threatened injury” as a result of Defendants’ conduct"

    Taylor writes later:

    "Although this court is persuaded that Plaintiffs have alleged sufficient injury to establish standing, it is important to note that if the court were to deny standing based on the unsubstantiated minor distinctions drawn by Defendants, the President’s action in warrantless wiretapping, in contravention of FISA, Title III, and the First and Fourth Amendments, would be immunized from judicial scrutiny. …"

    In other words, if Taylor had ruled properly and found that the Plaintiffs had no standing to bring their lawsuit, she would have denied herself the ability to strike down the NSA intercept program by throwing out the lawsuit.

    Second, Taylor fails to address adequately that which has been debated here and elsewhere for months, i.e., the president’s inherent constitutional powers as commander-in-chief, and the long line of court cases (and historical evidence) related to it.

    Third, in many places, the opinion reads like a political screed.

    Fourth, Taylor insists on the immediate implementation of her decision, meaning that the NSA must stop intercepting enemy communications at this very moment, unless it succeeds in getting judicial relief elsewhere.
     
  4. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    I agree with Levin/carpro, it'll get overturned. I think this judge is wrong. I have no problem with this wiretapping. As I've said before, if it is being used to wiretap political enemies then the President, of whatever party, should be impeached, but I believe the President is using the technological means available to intercept and monitor the communications of those identified as threats. If this saves some lives and the only people whose "rights" being violated are terrorists, no loss. Though I respect the Left's (and some on the Right who disagree with these wiretaps) constitutional scruples here, but disagree with them, I believe that when lives are lost because we did not avail ourselves of such means to prevent it, the Left might then think this worthwhile, too.
     
    #4 fromtheright, Aug 17, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2006
  5. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    It isn't wiretaps that is at issue, it is the lack of warrants.
     
  6. hill

    hill New Member

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    Warrants are not needed now or during any previous administration, until this activist judge inserted her two cents. Oh well it won't stand.
     
  7. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    They sure are. That is why we have the FISA courts. Warrantless invasion of privacy is a hallmark of totalitarian regimes, not of a free people. Just because you disagree with a ruling, doesn't make a judge an "activist".
     
  8. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    No, it was them dern activist founding fathers who just had to insert that pesky 4th Amendment to the Constitution.
     
  9. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    Reading through Judge Taylor's opinion now. I do agree with the judge that the plaintiffs had standing, but I believe that the national security, and the lives of Americans, outweighs some reporter's right to get a story or even attorney-client privilege.
     
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I think a compromise on this issue is possible.

    If data is being gathered without a warrant it will be okay if it is not going to be used in criminal case.

    If it is later decided to use the data in criminal case, then the appropriate court must issue a warrant or else the data cannot be used in a court.
     
  11. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    I think that this is a game of semantics.

    Warrants were not needed to wiretap for national security . . .

    The constitution prevents legal search and seizure - it does not prevent the military from protecting against enemies foreign and domestic.

    The difference is whether or not the wiretap can later be used in court of law . . .

     
  12. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    See my post above. The compromise has always been there.

     
  13. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    And for all of you that want to practice that freedom you so casually brag about:

    Go to DC walk over to 2650 Wisconsin Avenue, NW and wave till your arms are tired, tired, tired of living in a free country.

    ;) Same thing if you go to the American Embassy in Moscow . . . And probably even London.

    But, if you really must have a totally free day and not be surveilled - go to Baghdad and tell the men and women how proud you are of their sacrifice.
     
  14. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    If you are on a public street, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy (except search of your person and seizure of your property). If you are in your own home, you do expect not to be spied on by your own government - without a warrant and probable cause.
     
    #14 Daisy, Aug 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2006
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The wire tapps had plenty of probable cause. And while no warrants were issued congress was made aware of this on a regular basis. I think that is a great compromise.
     
  16. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    You pays your money and takes your choice.

    The people in Stalan's USSR never had to worry about terrorists.
     
  17. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    Don't worry, carpro, as well as anyone else who so willingly relenquishes their Constitutional rights, this will be reversed on appeal.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14416571/
    BiR
     
  18. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    All that had to be done was to go to the FISA courts. Former President Clinton didn't seem to have any trouble staying within the guidelines of the law.....
     
  19. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    First, dwelling on your ommission of his impeachment, President Clinton did not have to deal with 9-11.

    Further, had President Clinton dealt with Osama better - we would not be having this discussion.

    President Clinton has said that he would have done what President Bush had done in starting the war on terror . . .

    Lastly, I think we as americans need to be realistic - American Airlines is still one of the top terror targets of the islamic terrorists.

    Therefore - wiretapping conversations outside of one's home (transmissions go into the public domain) that go to people on terrorist watch lists:

    Must be monitored to prevent a second 9-11.

     
  20. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Willingly?

    No one willingly went into the twin towers to be murdered by terrorists that hide behind the Constitution of the USA.

    Willingly?

    Take up your Constitutional Right to protect your country. There is no right for an American to be a traitor. There is no Constitutional protection of cowards, traitors, and terrorists.

    Show us where in the Constitution that it says, "And by the way - terrorists and their sympathizers have the protection of our country to wage a war of terror."



     
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