O.S.A.S. (Once. Saved. Always. Saved)

Hi Phillip,

??? Can you be more specific?

There ARE conditions (belief and repentance), or else ALL would be saved regardless. That is what is required of us to establish the new covenant in his blood.

I don't know. I will let God himself decide those on case-by-case basis.

How could you possibly tell?

Scripture gives an example of where someone accepts the word and receives it with joy, and believes. But later they stop believing and fall away. You cannot fall away from somewhere you never were.

True. However, that does nothing to ensure they will always be on good terms with you and spend eternity with you.

Scripture says sheep are able to go astray, even get lost in the mountains (far from the pastures). Those sheep are still sheep, but they are lost. Sometimes they are recovered. Those sons are still sons, but they are outside of the fellowship of the father (i.e. the prodigal son). Sometimes they are recovered.

No, I am still their father. But I do not lock them in a cage to make sure they stay with me. I cannot force them to stay with me.

I doubt it too. I don't think the covenant was broken, for he still believed in his heart even though he denied with his lips.

 

So, was Judas a sheep, or did God give Christ a goat that he lost.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

One can only speculate about Judas, scripture doesn't go into detail about his spiritual history.

 

natters,

I think the real issue here is your understanding of the relationship/fellowship idea. Before Christ saves us we are without God children of wrath...of our father the devil. that is one family. After Christ saves us we are adopted into the family of God...see, I am always my Dad's son...no matter what our "fellowship" is, our relationship never changes. Even if I deny being his son, that does not change the reality that I am his son.

I think you need to get a hold of the fact that we are "in christ"...already seated together with him in heavenly places...Eph 2.

Thanks for reading,
Max

 

Hi Max,

I understand what you are generally saying, but two of your statements seem contradictory:

and

If someone can be Satan's son, and then have that changed, why can't someone be God's son, and then have that changed?

If the father/son relationship cannot change, we are still Satan's children, which is of course not true.

 

We need not to speculate about Judas. The Scripture is fairly specific.

Matthew 26:20-25 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

Matthew 26:47-49 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
46 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
47 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

Mark 3:13-19 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: And Simon he surnamed Peter; And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite, And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

Luke 22:1-6 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.
6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.

John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 12:4-6 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

John 13:10-11 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

John 13:21-28 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it.
26 And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him.
27 Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.

Acts 1:16-20 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Acts 1:25-26 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Jesus said concerning Judas: "that it was good for that man if he had not been born." That alone indicates that he ended up in Hell. He placed a curse, as it were on him. "Woe to that man." It is almost like saying, "Cursed is that man."

But the strongest argument is found in Acts 1:25, where the Scripture plainly says that Judas went to "his own place," an expression that always indicates one's eternal destiny. The "own place" of Judas was Hell. All early commentaries and church fathers agree in this. No one has ever attempted any other meaning than this, unless they have had some deliberate agenda such as the denial of the eternal destiny of the wicked. The future destiny of Judas was Hell. He is there today. That is "his own place." That is where he went. "Woe unto that man. It would have been good if that man had never been born."
DHK

 

Thanks natters,

I see where that could be confusing...sorry. However, there is only a criteria for entering into God's Family...being "born again"...nowhere does the scripture speak of a person being "re-born again" back into Satan's family. Nowhere does the scripture say we are given power by Satan to become his son again...as in John 1. I had no choice in the matter of being born a child of wrath...but God's provision of grace allowed me to change my relationship. A reversal of this is not supported by Scripture.

Just my thoughts,
Max

 

JGrayhound: "OSAS is NOT the Biblical doctrine of Perseverance"

Well you are welcome to your opinion.

However, i define OSAS a bit different from that.

John 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten
Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish,
but haue euerlasting life.

I define OSAS to mean whatever it is that "have everlasting
life" means.

I define "doctrine of Perseverance" to mean what
ever it is what "have everlasting life" means.

Oh OSAS is the doctrine of Perservance, IMHO, of course.

 

But, now you are re-defining terms.

 

God knew what Judas was to do before Judas was born--also any other incarnations of Satan. We have trouble with "all knowing". We "know" so little.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

OSAS is the doctrine of the bible. Where you say? Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Why am I only quoting John?
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

You see, just like you are the child of your mom and dad, there is nothing that you can do to change that. THere is one thing that makes you the child of your dad, it is not your name, it is the blood. God has made it so every person on earth can understand salvation. Remember what he told Nicodemus in John 3:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Outward fruit is not a manifestation of being born again. Many JW's I know are more holy (outwardly) than many born again believers. This is sad! This does not mean they are saved. Everyone that is saved *should* live holy, and, indeed it is required. But holiness is not a prerequisite for getting saved, nor is it a necessity for staying saved.

What say ye?
-DeaconLew

 

DHK, I am quite familiar with all those passages. What I said is scripture doesn't go into detail about his spiritual history - i.e. what he believed and how faithful he was a year, or two, or 10, before his betrayal.

Pastor MHG, I agree is "reborn again" back into Satan's family, but again being someone's child does not mean you will always stay with them and have a relationship with them. Consider the prodigal son.

Again, that does not always mean the child will love the parents and want anything to do with them.
I'm hoping sooner or later someone will address the verses I keep mentioning (Luke 8:13 and others), as well as the comments about covenant.

 

Natters, are you equating "relationship with God" to be the same as "relationship to God"? Because it kinda sounds like you are, and if so, I respectfully submit that these are 2 different ideas. My relationship to God is that of son to father and that never changes once I accept Christ as Savior. My relationship with God will change based on how I change. If not, then, well, what I said still applies, but not necessarily to you.

The Prodigal's relationship to his father didn't change after he left and spent all his money. The Prodigal's relationship with his father did change once he left home and it changed again once he came back home.

Also, I'll take you up on your request and take a look at Luke 8:13.

 

ccrobinson, perhaps I didn't use clear terminology earlier, but I basically agree with what you said. Others seemed to be saying that just because one's relationship to God is that he is the Father, then their relationship with God must still be intact and they are still saved. I disagree with that: like the prodigal son or the straying sheep or a husband to a wife, one can leave the relationship.

The covenant of marriage is "till death do us part". As long as both parties are faithful to the covenant, that's what will happen. The new covenant in his blood is "eternal". As long as both parties are faithful to the covenant, that's what will happen.

 

Hi Natters;

This is true but it does say he was given to Christ and that Christ lost him.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition ; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hi Ed Edwards;

Yet perseverance is never used to describe what God does for man but what one does for one's self.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Oh, it's not?

Isn't the whole point of John 15 that true believers WILL bear fruit?

You need to re-check your theology, brother. You have gone away from the teaching of Scripture.
Outward fruit is most definitely the evidence of a changed life.

 

Yet perseverance is never used to describe what God does for man but what one does for one's self.
</font>[/QUOTE]Huh?

 

Waiting for response from Deacon Lew and clarification from ILUVLIGHT

 

IMO one that believes he/she can loose their salvation does not have very much Faith in God or His promises If you ask me.