Obey every ordinance of man

I must of misunderstood your thread. I thought you said scripture supported the idea of taking up arms against those who "trash our constitution". I thought you were asking about armed rebellion against the government.

That's a different subject from defending ourselves, personally.

Brother, I am ready to learn from scripture, and I am always open to what scripture says. I intend to follow the clear teaching of God's Word no matter what I have believed in the past.

What you have done, however, is mangle the meaning of scripture in an attempt to justify armed rebellion against the government. That, I cannot accept as biblical.

peace to youraying:

 

Peace will not break out all over the world. We would be in subjigation to a foreign enemy because some misinterpret scripture to suggest that we shouldn't defend ourselves nor fight for our freedom.

 

There would be no foreign enemies if all the pacifists were in charge, by definition. Every nation would be controlled by a pacifist. Therefore, peace would break out all over.

BTW, my freedom is in Christ. It cannot be taken away by man or government.

peace to youraying:

 

I was speaking of the U.S. and not the world. There will only be peace when Jesus sits on the throne in Jerusalem. In the meantime I stand by my statement with one clarification. Thank God that pacifists are not in charge of the United States. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a U.S. They would have long ago handed over our country to those who would enslave us.

 

That explains alot.

You just assume no one is saved but you and your wife. That way, you can dismiss everyone that disagrees with you on any issue and interpret scripture accordingly to your own wisdom.

peace to youraying:

 

Participating in violence to accomplish political purposes is contrary to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ, therefore, no Christian should participate in violent acts for political purposes.

peace to youraying:

 

Thank you for your opinion, now back to reality. If we followed the teachings of pacifists we would live under tyranny. Pacifists would sell us out in a minute based on false interpretations from the Bible. Again, thank God they are not in charge of the U.S.

 

What!? There is no need to take up arms against those who are "trashing" our Constitution (or their interpretation thereof) and IMO, I don't think that was the intent of the OP, you are reading something into it that isn't there.

They can be voted out of office.

The Constitution has been ignored and contradicted by every administration.

For instance, the Constitution only allows for gold and silver coinage as our currency. Today we have something called federal reserve notes with no precious metal backing them. This is the major reason for the failure of the dollar IMO.

If the majority vote in favor of those who "trash" the Constitution, so be it, free people also have the freedom to be stupid as well as free.

As for the Boston Massacre, two of the British soldiers were found guilty of murder. John Adams had their verdict reduced to manslaughter due to a loophole in British law.

In the revolutionary engagement, the British drew first blood.

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.​

Here is our National anthem which you say don't quite see the same way I do (it is clearly a war anthem) :

Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Our nation was born of a rebellion against the tyranny of the British Crown. Even the Founding Fathers admitted that it was a rebellion and knew full well that they would be put to death if captured and tried for treason.

It is your heritage as an American whether you like it or not.

HankD

 

Those that say Christ is a pacifist do not know the scriptures.

Exo 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Now, I think it is very important to see that he makes war in righteousness. To make war without a just cause would be sin. But the Lord himself commanded the Israelites to go to war many times.

I do not think our government has gotten to the point of being completely tyrannical, we have the vote and this is what we should do to effect change. However, if truly the government became despotic as written in the Declaration of Independence, then we have a just reason for armed rebellion.

 

Where did I say serving as a police officer or a member of the armed services is a sin?

The question of the OP was whether 2 Peter "commands us to take up arms against those who trash our constitution".

I answered your question by appealing to scripture, where Christians are clearly told not to rebel against their governments, not to do violence for political purposes, and pray for those who persecute them.

As I said before, your problem is that your opinion is contrary to God's Word.

Any attempt on your part to deflect from that truth by making up statements and attributing them to me is a sign you have lost the debate and are grasping at strawmen.

FTR, I have served my country in the Armed Forces (101st Airborne) and have served as a police officer.

I am a Christian first, by the grace of God, and a baptist by choice.

As a Christian, I am committed to following God's Word, whether or not the baptist tradition in America agrees.

peace to youraying:

 

Oh, good grief!! Here, I will repost part of the very first post, which is the focus of this thread:

stilllearning said in post#1 (found on the first page of the thread if you want to read it for yourself):

I have bolded and enlarged the last sentence so that you can clearly see the question of the OP, which was asked by stilllearning. Does scripture (I Peter 2:13) "command us to take up arms....". I didn't "read into it" anything. I responded to the question.

I have never denied it was part of American heritage.

I have simply agreed with scripture on the question of whether Christians should rebel against the government. Clearly, if you believe God's Word, they should not.

peace to youraying:

 

First of all, Christians are not the Israelites and God hasn't commanded us to "take up arms".

God reserves for Himself the final judgment, which is reflected in the Rev 19:11.

We, as Chrsitians, are commanded to be at peace with all men (so far as it depends upon us), and leave room for the judgment of God.

Christians are commanded by God not to rebel against governments, not to do evil, and pray for those who persecute.

I understand it is hard to accept for many people, but that is what God's Word says.

peace to youraying:

 

I don't think I completely understand the OP question.

What does "trash our constitution" mean? That we fight people if they criticize the constitution? What "people" is meant in the OP - only foreigners?

I don't see how the Peter passage supports taking arms up against anyone.

I do believe in self-defense - that is, if we are attacked, we can fight back as a country though individuals may have objections.

 

I read it and am even more confused. Are you saying that you consider the present administration not to be the gov't of the U.S? It reminds me of those armed men out in Idaho and Montana.

 

I disagree with this statement. Many of our elected representatives try to make us believe that our government is a pure democracy rather than a democratically elected constitutional republic.

The constitution provides limitations upon what types of laws Congress is legally allowed to authorize. For instance, the First Amendment says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This amendment is not predictive, but prescriptive. If Congress writes a law that violates the Constitution as amended, that law is unconstitutional and should have no force of law.

We do not elect "dictators." We elect representatives who are bound by an oath to uphold, protect, and defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. This is the law. As citizens we have a legal obligation under the Constitution to hold our elected representatives to their word to obey their legally binding oath of office.

If every law the Congress writes is, by definition, "constitutional," then their oath of office is meaningless and nothing but a charade. There is really no need to make them swear upon the Bible and repeat such an oath if the oath is not intended to be binding.