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Featured Objections to the Teetotalism view on Alcohol

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Aug 25, 2015.

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  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Further I do not drink or even purchase alcohol because of its poor testimony. If I am seen buying a six pack no one knows how long it will take me to drink it. It will be assumed by many if not all that I intend to get inibriated. "Look the preacher drinks!"

    I just avoid it altogether. It has a very poor testimony and it adds nothing positive to my life. No point.
     
  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I do not see a christian buying a six-pack of beer no differently than a christian walking out of a pharmacy with a bag full of pills.

    It is how one handles them that matters. But I do see your point RM.
     
  3. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    "One Christian man daringly wrote to inform me what a ridiculous fool I am for teaching that Jesus did not create or drink alcoholic wine.

    He did not care what the Bible had to say. His argument was based totally on natural things. He informed me that there was no way to keep grape juice from fermenting in Jesus' day. He put me on notice that the Last Supper occurred in the winter which could only mean there was no fresh grape juice available, thus limiting Jesus and His disciples to the use of fermented grape juice only.

    He very pridefully and mockingly asked me if I believed that Jesus had "a magical refrigerator" where He could have stored unfermented grape juice for use during the Last Supper.

    What fools we make of ourselves when we speak without knowledge. This is why the Apostle James advised that we be quick to hear and slow to speak. (James 1:19)

    In Jesus' day the Hebrew people were extremely adept at preserving fruits, vegetables and grains for long periods of time without fermentation occurring. The art of preserving produce and grains was well-known to the Hebrews of Jesus' day and well before His day.

    In his book, "On Agriculture and Trees," Columella, a very popular agriculturalist in the 1st Century A.D., reveals many unique methods for preserving all types of produce and grains, including unfermented grape juice. One method was by boiling fruit juices down to half or one-third of their original volume, replacing the liquid with water and adding a small amount of vinegar and salt to keep away worms and fermentation for an extended period.

    Grapes and other fruits were also submerged in watered-down honey, because honey has a natural tendency to stop and/or prevent corruption from spreading. This would keep the grapes from decaying, thereby extending what we today would call their "shelf-life."

    This not only made the uncorrupted grapes available for many months after the harvest, but also made the squeezing of fresh grape juice possible over the same length of time. Today we use a similar method to prevent corruption and fermentation when we can fruits in heavy sugar syrup.

    Another method of preservation was to alternately layer fresh fruits with sawdust in a barrel and seal the barrel with clay.

    Fruits were also individually, or in bunches, dipped repeatedly in a mixture of watery clay, similar to candle-making, to preserve their freshness for long periods of time. The fruit was then hung in a cool, dry place and when needed, plunged in water for the clay around the fruit to dissolve.

    Yet another method of preserving grapes for future use was as follows. Lengthy vines full of grapes were cut and the cut end was sealed with pitch. The branches were then placed in alternating layers of dried chaff in clay-sealed vessels. Green grapes stored in this manner would last for up to one full year. Some would use alternating layers of barley bran and grapes also sealed in clay vessels.

    Different methods were used in different areas of the world, all based upon local conditions.

    Many other historical writings confirm these and a multiplicity of other methods of fruit, vegetable and grain preservation without fermentation over extended periods of time.

    Pliney the Elder, a greatly trusted Roman scholar and naturalist, includes many methods of fruit, vegetable and grain preservation without fermentation as does the Talmud.

    Josephus, the very popular Hebrew historian, tells us that the fruits and grains found by the Romans in the Fortress of Masada were still fresh although they had been in storage for some years. "When the Romans got possession of those fruits that were left, they found them not corrupted all that while."

    All of the above trusted historical writers and many others clearly reveal the art of preserving all types of produce over extended periods of time was not only well-known to the Jews of Jesus' day, but by many other cultures for centuries before Him.

    Therefore, in response to my comical but uneducated critic, I say, "No, I do not believe Jesus had a magical refrigerator. But I do believe in the produce and grain preservation technologies of His day. All of these technologies would have made freshly squeezed, unfermented grape juice available any season of the year, including at the Last Supper."
     
  4. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    Why respond? that's like trying to prove to pedobaptist that the Jailor in Acts 16 didn't have babies in his household.
     
  5. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Oh the lengths one will go...
     
    #66 SovereignGrace, Aug 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2015
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    One is recreational the other is medicinal. Medicinal does not justify recreational.
     
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Oui, monsieur. But drinking a glass of wine or a beer AT HOME is not sinning as some on here purport. Neither is taking a nerve pill. But if a nerve pill...not taken to intentionally get a high...impairs one's driving, it is a DUI. Impairment is impairment. If anyone takes a nerve pill they are not to drive. One who drink alcohol is not to drive. Many drink one glass of wine or one beer and that is it. Others after the first drink or pill are hooked. This is where discernment comes in.
     
  9. Rolfe

    Rolfe Well-Known Member
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    So, have you assumed that the text says what you want to?

    It was a simple question that I asked. It should warrant a simple answer. Defend your position.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Well it may or may not be. If you are buzzed by it it is.

    Which has nothing to do with the use of alcohol.

    If you are impaired for recreational purposes then you are in sin.

    The comparison is not helpful to the discussion of the use of alcohol.
     
  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I have heard of Dr's telling their patients that one beer a day was good for their kidneys. Whether that is true, I do not know. So if a Dr prescribes a beer a day, would that be medicinal? I ask this to further the discussion.
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Please note that I am being sincere here. I find questions like this to be suspicious. Who does not know that what a Dr. Prescribes for health reasons is medicinal? I do not care for questions with obvious answers. They are often sarcasm or they are set up questions. I am a bit annoyed at this point.
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Yes
    Yes I would drink in front of someone that doesn't approve. I could give a fig if you are a teetotler or not. But if you are a knock down drag out drunk then id take you to an AA meeting. There is the difference....what would you do?
     
  14. wpe3bql

    wpe3bql Member

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    It appears that you seem to believe that the NT states that the word "wine" in John Chapter 2 is not intoxicating. I don't know where exactly you've come up with that conclusion from the NT.

    In the NT, one will find that the English word "wine" was always translated from the Greek word oinos. Every other place in the Greek NT where oinos is used, it always refers to "intoxicating wine."

    The Jewish wedding feast mentioned in John Chapter 2 was no different than any other Jewish wedding feast of that era. It was standard practice at such wedding feasts, some of which lasted for many days, to consume more than the usual daily quantity of wine.

    It was incumbent upon the host/ruler of the wedding feast to serve the more intoxicating wine during the initial stages of the wedding feast, then, as the feast progressed, the host/ruler would add water to the wine so as not to let the wine be completely depleted.

    This is why the host/ruler of the wedding feast--who apparently was unaware of the fact [See John 2:9] that Jesus had created more intoxicating wine from the rather large water pots--whose individual capacity ranged from 18-27 gallons--commented that this intoxicating wine was apparently even more intoxicating than the wine that he himself had secured for the wedding feast.

    In Dr. Spiros Zodhiates' Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament [(c) 1992 by AMG], he states in his entry for the Greek word oinos that this Greek word was always used as intoxicating wine.

    In both Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34 of being a "winebibber." The Greek word for "winebibber" is oinopotou, which, as one can easily see, is derived from the root word oinos. Is it not logical that the wine used in these two gospel accounts would, of necessity be intoxicating? Surely Christ wouldn't be accused of consuming something as a sort of grape juice, would He?

    Why would Paul, in both 1 Timothy 3 and in both Titus 1 & 2, as he was setting forth the qualifications for local church officers, not be referring to intoxicating wine? I have yet to observe a local church refusing to vet a man if he were guilty of consuming a type of grape juice.

    The Apostle Peter, in 1 Peter 4:3, when he addressed the NT Jewish Christians to not revert back to the riot-filled lives of the Gentiles, he particularly warned them not to engage in "excess of oinos--intoxicating wine.

    In both Revelation 17 and 18 describes the end-times' "Babylon" Apostle John as luring the earth's rulers by having them be "made drunk with the oinos of her fornication" [17:2] and the end-times nations having been "drunk of the oinos of the wrath of her fornication..." [18:3].

    The last time I checked, I found that it's quite a stretch to come to the conclusion that one can get drunk from merely consuming a form of grape juice.

    I could go on citing other places where oinos is used, but I prefer to believe that whenever one sees oinois/"wine" in the text, it is referring to "intoxicating wine."

    To accuse me of reading anything into the "wine" of John Chapter 2 without giving any specific linguistic proof to support your claim that oinos/"wine" isn't an intoxicating beverage is, IMHO, quite an affront to a fellow BB member.
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Why don't you tell them the truth about yourself then?
     
  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Wine is a genuine matter of conscience, and there is nothing good in emboldening weaker brothers to violate theirs by imbibing. Nothing. The kingdom of God is not promoted through the casual or recreational indulgence thereof, and it is, therefore, rendered vain.

    So my advice, he that partakes may not be doing evil, but he that abstains for the sake of his brothers is doing better.

    Just stay away from it.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    No.........
     
  18. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Thank you.

    I actually see a type here in Christ's first miracle, at a wedding no less, of changing the water of the word to wine that maketh merry the heart of man [Ps 104:15]. The gospel of His fulfilling the law and the prophets, abolishing death, and imparting life and immortality makes our hearts happy, as 'wine that maketh merry the heart of man'.

    But, there's some here that will probably have convulsions over that one.
     
    #79 kyredneck, Aug 25, 2015
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  20. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    So if some was a recovering alcoholic you would drink in front of them, but then take them to an AA meeting??? Your solution to potential harm you may have caused them is to take them to a meeting. The fact that you would take them to a meeting after drinking in front of them, means you know that you would be doing harm to them. You just don't seem to care and think the free ride to a meeting absolves you of the offense.

    To answer you question on what I would do. Same thing Paul says.

    "I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love"

    "Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble."

    Absolutely no differences between food and alcohol here.
     
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