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Featured Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, May 27, 2020.

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  1. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Next:

    Time Index 11:55 - 12:41 -- "... So I'd like to show you some of the things that they teach and straight from the website [adventist.org/articles/statement-of-confidence-in-the-writings-of-ellen-g-white/]. [pause in speech] For example, for instance [click noise of mouse], they [Seventh-day Adventist] say this, "We reaffirm our conviction that her [Ellen G White] writings are divinely inspired. ..." Those are the writings of, M~ [Mary, self corrected], of uh, Ellen White. [scene change, to a selection of 'red' books, Original and Compilation in a circular pattern] So, Ellen White writes down - her writings, in different books (circling clockwise with mouse over books) like "The ADVENTIST HOME", "THE MINISTRY OF HEALING", "PRAYER", "Believe His PRPOHETS", "CHRIST's OBJECT LESSONS", EVANGELISM", "EDUCATION", Christian, uh ~ "Fundamentals of CHRISTIAN EDUCATION", "COUNSELS ON DIET and FOODS", They're very health conscious. Um, encouraging vegetarianism, and "GOSPEL WORKERS". [scene change back to the website previous] ..."​

    Well, there is a minor point to be made here in that some of the books were actually written by her, and others were simply compiled from various written materials of her through the years.

    For instance:

    The ADVENTIST HOME was published in AD 1952 as a compilation after she had gone to sleep in the Lord Jesus Christ in AD July 16, 1915.

    THE MINISTRY OF HEALING was original with her, citing many health articles therein, in the year AD 1905.

    PRAYER was published in AD 2002 as a compilation after she had gone to sleep in the Lord Jesus Christ in AD July 16, 1915.

    Believe His PROPHETS was published in AD 2016 as a compilation after she had gone to sleep in the Lord Jesus Christ in AD July 16, 1915.

    CHRIST'S OBJECT LESSONS was original with her, citing many health articles therein, in the year AD 1900.

    EVANGELISM was published in AD 1946 as a compilation after she had gone to sleep in the Lord Jesus Christ in AD July 16, 1915, and word has it that it was partially, LeRoy Edwin Froom who had a hand in it.

    EDUCATION was original with her, citing many health articles therein, in the year AD 1903.

    Fundamentals of CHRISTIAN EDUCATION was published in AD 1923 as a compilation after she had gone to sleep in the Lord Jesus Christ in AD July16, 1915.

    COUNSELS ON DIETS and FOODS was published in AD 1938 as a compilation after she had gone to sleep in the Lord Jesus Christ in AD July 16, 1915.

    GOSPEL WORKERS was first issued in 1892, and the current revision is dated AD 1915.​

    On the matter of inspiration, yes, sister White was most certainly "divinely inspired", and this may be demonstrated in numerous ways as needful. She was as inspired as any in inspired persons in scripture, who had published works (Daniel), or as those who did not have published works (John the Baptist).

    Sister White used a wide range of materials in association with what God had shown her in dream, or vision. She utilized health articles, such as in Ministry of Healing and Counsels on Diets and Foods, and educational materials for the book Education, and historical materials such as appears in Great Controversy (not listed above), and first and foremost the Bible amongst all of them.

    Actually, if you read the written materials, we do not advocate 'vegetarianism' so much as we advocate Health Reform which is directly tied to the Everlasting Gospel, for what affects the body affects the mind and the clarity thereof, as it is written according to Scripture (KJB). For instance there is a difference between vegetarianism and veganism (both having theological aspects associated with pagan religions, and non scriptural practices associated also) and Biblical Health reform, or Genesis diet.



    There is also a difference to be made in say "The Testimonies", etc and "the Great Controversy", etc, which may be discussed as needful.
     
    #101 Alofa Atu, Jun 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  2. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Next major error, "cessationism":

    Time Index 12:41 - 13:51 -- "...Now friends, a lot, all cults, function the say way. If you notice all the people that we mentioned have the same kind of method. They say, 'We believe the Bible. It's inspired.', but apparently the Bible is not enough. They add to it something else. So, for example, in the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses, they say, 'Yes, we believe the Bible.', but they also take as inspired the magazines of the Watchtower. In the case of Mormons, for instance, they say, 'Yes, we believe the Bible is inspired.', but they also take in addition to that the writings of Jo~, of Joseph Smith. So, the Book of Mormon, and then, uh, the Pearl of Great Price. They have about five different books. In the case of, uh, Islam, for example, they say, 'Yes, we believe the Bible is inspired.', but they also add to it the Qur'an. In the case of Catholicism, they say, 'Yes, we believe the Bible is inspired.', but they also add to it the writings of the "Church Fathers", and of the popes, and holy Tradition, right? So, that's how cults work. Please understand. They can't deny the Bible. They just add something to the Bible. Which, of course, they always claim works with the Bible, but then, you have to ask yourself, 'So, why wasn't the Bible enough? Why did you have to add something to it?' ..."​

    The Bible (KJB) doesn't teach "cessationism" (the false ideology of the devil, that after the book of Revelation was sealed, or John the Apostle died, that the gifts to the church ceased (circa AD 90ish to AD 100)). So the real issue here, is your own position br. George. Let's use your argument against the various prophets of the Bible and see what we get first, before demonstrating that prophets, dreams, visions, etc were to continue with the Church [Body of Christ] unto the first end (Second Coming/Advent).

    God directly spake the Ten Commandments aloud to all present at Mt. Sinai (Jews and Gentiles). Why need the additional writings of Moses?

    After Moses was accepted as 'canon', Joshua comes along and has his written materials in addition to Moses. Why need the additional writings of Joshua?

    After Joshua was accepted as 'canon', the Judges unto Samuel (Judge/Prophet/Priest) comes along and has his written material (or recorded materials) in addition to Moses and Joshua. Why need the additional writings of Judges unto Samuel?

    After Samuel was accepted as 'canon', King David comes along, and has his written materials (some Psalms, etc), in addition to Moses, Joshua, Judges unto Samuel. Why need the additional writings of David?

    After David was accepted as 'canon', King Solomon comes along, and has his written materials (some psalms, proverbs and ecclesiates, song of solomon, etc, which included the proverbs of many others, and science, etc), in addition to Moses, Joshua, Judges unto Samuel, King David. Why need the additional writings of Solomon?

    After Solomon was accepted as 'canon' Isaiah comes along, and has his written materials, in addition to Moses, Joshua, Judges unto Samuel, King David, Solomon. Why need the additional writings of Isaiah?

    After Isaiah was accepted as 'canon', Jeremiah (with Baruch, his writing assistant), and has his written materials, in addition to Moses, Joshua, Judges unto Samuel, King David, Solomon, Isaiah. Why need the additional writings of Jeremiah (which includes Lamentations, as scribed by Baruch for Jeremiah)?

    After Jeremiah (and Baruch) was accepted as 'canon', Daniel and Ezekiel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Haggai and Zechariah come along and have their written materials in addition to Moses, Joshua, Judges unto Samuel, King David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah. Why need the additional writings of Daniel and Ezekiel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Haggai and Zechariah and the Minor prophets (Hosea to Malachi)?

    There was a near 400 year gap of apparent silence. Then comes the NT with John the Baptist and Jesus.

    So after the 'canon' seemed closed, a whole new material arose inspired of God. Was the inspiration of the NT prophets, persons, the same as that in the OT? In other words was John the Baptist as inspired as Daniel, or Moses to do the things he did?

    So we have the entire OT (Genesis to Malachi, modern Christian order, the Jewish order ended with Chronicles, hence TaNaKh, Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim) and now we get the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke (with Acts) and John. Why need the additional writings?

    Then, we have the additional 13 epistles of Paul (Romans to Hebrews). Why need the additional writings?

    Then, we have the writings of Peter, James, Jude. Why need the additional writings?

    Then a large period of apparent silence (just as from the OT to NT , though it is only apparent and not actually, as already cited in another part of this forum, as persons from that time onward still had dreams, visions, prophecies that came to pass (citations upon request). Persons such as John Huss gave, and one of which Luther gave, and of a dream of Frederick the elector of Saxony, Patrick of Ireland's [a seventh-day Sabbath keeper, in "The Confessio"] dream, George Wishart's prophecy, William Miller, the visions of William Foy and Hazen Foss, and the visions and dreams of sister Ellen G. White, brother Matteson had a dream [Testimonies For the Church, Volume 1, Chapter 104, page 596.3-598.2 [JULY 15, 1867]], etc and others throughout history such as the Eskimo prophet, Maniilaq, and the south American Native prophet, Auka, and there are many such historical accounts with angels, etc.
     
  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Next major error, "cessationism":

    Time Index 12:41 - 13:51 -- "...Now friends, a lot, all cults, function the say way. If you notice all the people that we mentioned have the same kind of method. They say, 'We believe the Bible. It's inspired.', but apparently the Bible is not enough. They add to it something else. So, for example, in the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses, they say, 'Yes, we believe the Bible.', but they also take as inspired the magazines of the Watchtower. In the case of Mormons, for instance, they say, 'Yes, we believe the Bible is inspired.', but they also take in addition to that the writings of Jo~, of Joseph Smith. So, the Book of Mormon, and then, uh, the Pearl of Great Price. They have about five different books. In the case of, uh, Islam, for example, they say, 'Yes, we believe the Bible is inspired.', but they also add to it the Qur'an. In the case of Catholicism, they say, 'Yes, we believe the Bible is inspired.', but they also add to it the writings of the "Church Fathers", and of the popes, and holy Tradition, right? So, that's how cults work. Please understand. They can't deny the Bible. They just add something to the Bible. Which, of course, they always claim works with the Bible, but then, you have to ask yourself, 'So, why wasn't the Bible enough? Why did you have to add something to it?' ..."​

    The Bible (KJB) doesn't teach "cessationism" (the false ideology of the devil, that after the book of Revelation was sealed, or John the Apostle died, that the gifts to the church ceased (circa AD 90ish to AD 100)). So the real issue here, is your own position br. George. Let's use your argument against the various prophets of the Bible and see what we get first, before demonstrating that prophets, dreams, visions, etc were to continue with the Church [Body of Christ] unto the first end (Second Coming/Advent).

    The writings of any prophet are always subject to the previous scripture before it, all of which is subject to the Law of God, as per:

    Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    1Co_14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
    As for the matter of continuing prophets, visions and dreams, see Acts 2:16-21; Joel 2:28-32, etc. Prophets are a continuing gift unto the church, Ephesians 4:11-16; 1 Corinthians 12-14, etc. Do not mistake the words of 1 Corinthians 13 to think that it teaches the 'cessation' of the gifts then or at the time of John. It doesn't teach any such thing in context. In fact, Revelation, written long after Paul, states that the antichrist would kill prophets (Revelation 16:6, 18:24).

    1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
    1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
    1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
    1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
    1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
    Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
    Eph_3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    Anyone may see Ellen G White's position on Final Authority in all matters of Faith and Practice here - SDA: Cult of Fear-Mongers

    Sister White specifically addresses why the testimonies were needed (originally given in Testimonies For The Church, Volume 2) :

    "... Brother J would confuse the mind by seeking to make it appear that the light God has given through the Testimonies is an addition to the Word of God, but in this he presents the matter in a false light. God has seen fit in this manner to bring the minds of His people to His word, to give them a clearer understanding of it. The word of God is sufficient to enlighten the most beclouded mind and may be understood by those who have any desire to understand it. But notwithstanding all this, some who profess to make the Word of God their study are found living in direct opposition to its plainest teachings. Then, to leave men and women without excuse, God gives plain and pointed testimonies, bringing them back to the word that they have neglected to follow. The word of God abounds in general principles for the formation of correct habits of living, and the testimonies, general and personal, have been calculated to call their attention more especially to these principles. {CCh 92.3}

    I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with the several Testimonies for the Church, given for the people of God. Here, said I, the cases of nearly all are met. The sins they are to shun are pointed out. The counsel that they desire can be found here, given for other cases situated similarly to themselves. God has been pleased to give you line upon line and precept upon precept. {CCh 92.4}

    But there are not many of you that really know what is contained in the Testimonies. You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's Word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies. It is because you have neglected to acquaint yourselves with God's inspired Book that He has sought to reach you by simple, direct testimonies, calling your attention to the words of inspiration which you had neglected to obey, and urging you to fashion your lives in accordance with its pure and elevated teachings. 119 {CCh 92.5}..."​

    So the real 'error'; of those you mentioned, is a ,misuse of the gift as defined by scripture.
     
  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    A MASSIVE ERROR, a MASSIVE MISREPRESENTATION (even when the evidence against such is on the very screen you are reading br. George):

    Time Index 13:51 - 14:42 -- "... Now, they [Seventh-day Adventists] believe that the writings of [video cut] White are inspired of God and equal to the Bible. I don't want to misrepresent anybody. This is from the website [adventist.org/articles/statement-of-confidence-in-the-writings-of-ellen-g-white/]. What they believe. And when they met together at the General Conference session of the Seventh-day Adventist church in San Antonio, Texas. That was in July, 2nd to the 11th, a~ as recently as 2015. They said this, quote, "We reaffirm our conviction that her [Ellen G White] writings are divinely inspired ..." Then they say, "... they [the writings of Ellen G White] uplift the normative character of Scripture and correct inaccurate interpretations ..." Which means that the Bible has mistakes, but the writings of Mary White [sic, actually Ellen G White] do not. And that you can correct the Bible with the writings of Mary White [sic, actually Ellen G White]. That's what that means. That's the practical conclusion. Is it not? ..."
    First and foremost. The writings of Ellen G White, as the Lord's (Jesus Christ) Messenger are indeed "inspired of God", just as any of the OT an NT persons who wrote were (like Daniel) or who didn't write (like John the Baptist).

    Secondly, the writings of Ellen G White, as the Lord's (Jesus Christ) Messenger, are always "subject to" the Bible. They are beneath it, not "equal" to it. Not only is Isaiah clear (Isaiah 8:20), so too Paul was clear (1 Corinthians 14:32), but she herself was clear, as already cited:

    Here - SDA: Cult of Fear-Mongers

    Here - Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines

    And the most grievous of all is the statement being "wrested" from the GC and website. Brother Antonios, I ask that you retract your statement, as it is most seriously in error, and that statement being, in response:

    "... Then they say, "... they [the writings of Ellen G White] uplift the normative character of Scripture and correct inaccurate interpretations ..." Which means that the Bible has mistakes, but the writings of Mary White [sic, actually Ellen G White] do not. And that you can correct the Bible with the writings of Mary White [sic, actually Ellen G White]. That's what that means. That's the practical conclusion. Is it not? ..."​

    No, brother Antonios. The statement from the website, and GC, is clear. We [Seventh-day Adventists] do not teach, and have never taught, that the writings of Ellen G White correct the Bible. Your statement is grievous error and very much misrepresentation. The Seventh-day Adventists who are true to scripture do not teach and have never taught that the Bible has mistakes. Just read any of my posts on this forum about the KJB, or even "bible" in general.

    Read the statement from the website again, in full context, and do not stop where you did:

    "... We reaffirm our conviction that her [Ellen G White] writings are divinely inspired, truly Christ-centered, and Bible-based. Rather than replacing the Bible, they [writings of Ellen G White] uplift the normative character of Scripture and correct inaccurate interpretations of it [the Bible, by men] derived from tradition, human reason, personal experience, and modern culture. ..." - Statement of Confidence in the Writings of Ellen G White | Adventist.org
    The phrase "normative character of Scripture" refers to the matter of the Bible being the Final Authority in all matters of faith and practice, and that it is inspired of God, and preserved by God (from all error), Psalms 12:6-7; John 10:35, etc.

    Nowhere in that official citation, does it say that the Bible has errors, or that the writings of sister White correct those 'errors' (as you think we said, but did not) in the Bible. What it does say, is that the writings of Ellen G White do not replace Scripture as final authority, but uplift the "normative character" thereof, and correct men's fault interpretations of the perfect scriptures, because of man's faulty "tradition, human [fallen] reason, personal experience, and modern culture."

    An "interpretation of [Scripture, the Bible]" is not the same as "the Bible". Besides all which, there is only God's interpretation of Scripture as per Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20, etc.

    Brother Antonios. You erred and misrepresented (perhaps accidentally, through poor reading and comprehension), and as such, I (as a Seventh-day Adventist), ask you, as an honest Christian, to correct those statements you made, publicly. Please remember your own statement to do so at the end of the video, as well as the statement made here that you did not desire to misrepresent anybody.

    I look forward to your humble correction, and thank you in advance for so doing. I truly wished you had known me before you made the video, so I could weed all that out before you attempted to 'reach out' to all Seventh-day Adventists, as the video contains so much error.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Little Horn not papacy!
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Offices of prophet/apostle ended after John died. as we have NO more need for ANY additional revelation from God, as now have completed canon of the scriptures!
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sda views on Daniel prophecy NOT what the scriptures hold!
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sda hold that EW was inspired by God and had infallible understanding of Bible theology sje spoke on, but NONE have been inspired since John passed away!
     
  9. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    No doubt the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod has a rock solid understanding of the beliefs of Martin Luther. BTW, this Lutheran denomination holds to Luther’s identification of the papal Antichrist; an identification having nothing to do with abrogating the OT Sabbath. I quote from their official position (online), A STATEMENT ON Death, Resurrection, and Immortality:

    “Martin Luther reflects the variety of Scriptural language when he speaks of death and of the condition of the departed faithful. In some passages he speaks of a distinction between body and soul (W. A. 36, 241), while in other passages he affirms the unitary nature of man also in the state between death and the resurrection (W. A., Tischreden [Ser. 2, vol. V, No. 5534J , 218 f.; 43, 218). Thus he can speak both of the whole Abraham being with God and of the "soul" of Abraham resting or serving God (W. A. 43, 480). He also repeatedly expresses his faith that the body will be raised on the last day. (W. A. 12, 268; 36, 605).”

    Conclusion: This Church follows the teachings of Luther, unlike SDA. Luther believed the dead saints were with God in rest or service. He did not believe they were unconscious and unaware of being in the presence of God.

    This paper then goes on to deny annihilation.

    Furthermore, unlike the Arminianism of the SDA Church, this Lutheran Church holds to Luther’s doctrine of absolute predestination of the Elect to salvation, apart from works or foreseen faith. Their statement may be found here.

    Moreover, they hold firmly to Sunday worship, the next item delineated after the Election of Grace.

    Last, but not least, in 1998 the president of the Synod, Dr. A.L. Barry, wrote a paper entitled, What About Death and Dying? His is the position of the LCMS. I quote from his paper which is online:

    “What is death?

    The Bible teaches that death is not an annihilation in which we cease to exist. The Scriptures teach that death is the separation of our eternal soul from our mortal bodies. Our bodies rest in the grave, awaiting the final day when soul and body shall be reunited. At the moment of death, our souls, and the souls of all those who die in faith, immediately are in the presence of Christ, and will enjoy His presence, peace and joy until the great day of the resurrection of all flesh.”

    He continues:

    What happens after we die?

    For unbelievers, there is the “second death” (Rev. 20:14) in which their souls are immediately in the presence of Satan and immediately begin to suffer the torment of eternal punishment in hell, from which there is no possibility of escape. On the day of judgment, their bodies join their souls in hell.”

    Citing Martin Luther as an advocate for your cause is the absurd equivalent to citing Donald Trump as an advocate for the Democratic Party.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Love it when they quote Spurgeon and 1689 LBCF as supporting their sabbath position!
     
  11. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Actually, no. They have been overrun by the Jesuits, a loooong time ago.
     
  12. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    I shall provide to you (again): as seen here - Do The SDA See Ellen White As Modern Prophetess Then?

    It seems your only mission is to simply and purposefully misrepresent. A character of satan. Repentance is only open for a short while longer, after which you shall remain as you are, and so go to the place appointed.

    Where in all of sister White's writing, did she ever say, teach such a thing of herself either?

    Interpreter of Scripture (God, or Ellen?), Ellen says:

    "... All should feel the importance of the scheme of educating the youth to understand the Scriptures. Let the work be taken hold of in the very simplicity of the truth itself. Lead the minds of the youth from truth to truth, up higher and higher, showing them how scripture interprets scripture, one passage being the key to other passages. Thus the Scripture itself will be the educating power, holding the thoughts in captivity to Christ.--Letter 27a, 1892. {Ev 581.1} ..."​

    Infallibility (God):

    Manuscript 38, 1887, par. 1 -

    “... God is infallible. God has spoken by Solomon that He "requireth that which is past" (Ecclesiastes 3:15). He "seeks again" that which is past (marginal reading). The body of Huss was consumed. The council had done all that they could do with the man whose only crime was that he could not accept as infallible the council of Constance and he could not let their voice stand above the voice of God in His Word. ...”

    See also:

    [1] Manuscript Releases, Volume 9 (1990) [Nos. 664-770], MR No. 741 - The Witness Of John Huss, page 275.1

    [2] Christ Triumphant (1999), Chapter 11 - The Future Revealed In The Book Of Revelation, page 325.2​

    The Review And Herald, December 15, 1885, Art. A, par. 16 -

    “... When God's word is studied, comprehended, and obeyed, a bright light will be reflected to the world; new truths, received and acted upon, will bind us in strong bonds to Jesus. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy word will be in harmony. Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God's word is infallible. Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed, The Bible our rule of faith and discipline. ...”

    See also:

    [1] Selected Message Book 1 (1958), Chapter 65 - How To Meet A Controverted Point Of Doctrine [Morning Talk At Battle Creek, Michigan, January 29, 1890], page 416.2​

    The Review And Herald, February 6, 1900, Art. A, par. 3 -

    “... Man's word fails; and he who takes the assertions of men his dependence, may well tremble; for he will one day be as a shipwrecked vessel. But God's word is infallible, and endures forever. Christ declares, "Verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." God's word will endure throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. ...”

    See also:

    [1] The Youth Instructor, December 1, 1903, par. 3, Lessons From The Life Of Daniel - XVI God's Prophetic Word

    [2] The Upward Look (1982), Chapter 82 - God, The Revealer Of Secrets, page 96.5

    [3] Christ Triumphant (1999), Chapter 11 - The Future Revealed In The Book Of Revelation, page 327.4​

    The Review And Herald, July 26, 1892, par. 7 - Search The Scriptures - By Mrs. E. G. White

    “... We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed. {RH, July 26, 1892 par. 7} ...”

    See also:

    [1] Christian Experience And Teachings Of Ellen G. White (1922) Chapter 33: Organization And Development, page 203.2

    [2] Testimonies To Ministers And Gospel Workers (1923), Chapter 1 - The Church Of Christ, page 30.2

    [3] Counsels To Writers And Editors (1946), Chapter 4, Attitude To New Light, page 37.1

    [4] Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), Chapter 2, Ellen G. White And Her Writings - A Letter To Dr. Paulson, St. Helena, California, June 14, 1906, page 37.3 - 37.4

    [5] The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), Chapter 121 - Search The Scriptures - By Mrs. E. G. White, page 991.7​

    Letter 10, June 9, 1895, par. 6 -

    “... God help you, my dear nephew, to make deep and thorough work, that you may have a living connection with God, and then you can have a safe connection with men who are only fallible like yourself. In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in him is no variableness, or shadow of turning. {1888 1393.2} ...”

    See also:

    [1] Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), Chapter 2, Ellen G. White And Her Writings - A Letter To Dr. Paulson, St. Helena, California, June 14, 1906, page 37.4

    [2] The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), Chapter 165 - To F. E. Belden, page 1393.2​


    Infallibility (men, sister White):

    Letter 27, May 16, 1876, par. 3 -

    “... I wish that self should be hid in Jesus. I wish self to be crucified. I do not claim infallibility, or even perfection of Christian character. I am not free from mistakes and errors in my life. Had I followed my Saviour more closely, I should not have to mourn so much my unlikeness to His dear image. ...”

    See also:

    [1] Ellen G. White: The Lonely Years: 1876-1891 (Volume 3), page 34.5 (Arthur L. White) (1984)

    [2] Ellen G. White: The Progressive Years: 1862-1876 (Volume 2), page 444.6 (Arthur L. White) (1986)

    [3] 7MR - Manuscripts Releases Volume Seven [Nos. 419-525] (1990), MR No. 483 - The Spirit Of 1876 A Presentation On Ellen White Geared To The Bicentennial By R. W. Olson

    [4] 20MR - Manuscripts Releases Volume Twenty [Nos. 1420-1500] (1993), MR No. 1426 - Ellen White Acknowledges Her Imperfection, page 23.3

    [5] Daughters Of God (1998), Letters (Written May 10, 12, 16, and 17, 1876), page 272.6​

    Letter 10, June 9, 1895, par. 6 -

    “... God help you, my dear nephew, to make deep and thorough work, that you may have a living connection with God, and then you can have a safe connection with men who are only fallible like yourself. In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in him is no variableness, or shadow of turning. {1888 1393.2} ...”

    See also:

    [1] Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), Chapter 2, Ellen G. White And Her Writings - A Letter To Dr. Paulson, St. Helena, California, June 14, 1906, page 37.4

    [2] The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), Chapter 165 - To F. E. Belden, page 1393.2
    Much more may be cited, when you desire to hear it.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Sda sees EW as being the Infallible interpreter of the Bible, so if she wrote down or stated a position, must agree with her even if scriptures does not!
     
  14. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Next error, faulty logic, self-defeating, notice:

    Time Index 14:42 - 15:35 -- "... They also say, "... We commit ourselves to study the writings of Ellen G White prayerfully and with hearts willing to follow the counsels and instructions we find there." Now, that's ~ I, I read commentaries. I've a shelf full of commentaries. I recommend commentaries and bible books. But, to get together and vote together that we are gonna commit to studying anybody's commentaries, smacks of blasphemy. Smacks of heresy. Smacks of cultism. They say ` look at that, (points to website), "... Whether individually, in the family, in small groups, in the classroom, or in the church, a combined study of the Bible and her writings provide a transforming and faith-uplifting experience. ..." A combined ~ a combined study together, that they are dedicated to. A bit uncomfortable. ..."
    Notice the Bible itself. The entire NT is 'commentary' on the OT.

    Notice the OT examples even before that.

    A whole group of persons were gathered together to commit themselves to studying the book of Daniel, even though he wasn't 'canon' during the time it was written. Imagine that.

    Imagine a whole group of persons that were gathered together to commit themselves to studying the book of Jeremiah, even though he had just passed off the scene, and wasn't 'canon' yet. Imagine that.

    So likewise for every prophet that came after the material that was accepted as 'canon'.

    Then just consider the whole of the NT in the same light.

    Finally, Ellen G White is not commentary. She, like all the others before her, inspired by the Holy Ghost in scripture, is the Lord's messenger. To reject that which she was given from God, after testing and knowing it to be true, is to reject God, the giver. It would also be the same as rejecting all the others before her. It would like thinking to accept Jeremiah, but reject Daniel who came later. Or accept Daniel, but reject John the Baptist later. Or accept John the Baptist, and reject Paul later.

    Now also consider other denominations that do also similarly, see the Lutheran Missouri Synod on the Greater Catechism of Luther:

    "... 1] We have no slight reasons for treating the Catechism so constantly [in sermons] and for both desiring and beseeching others to teach it, since we see to our sorrow that many pastors and preachers are very negligent in this, and slight both their office and this teaching; some from great and high art (giving their mind, as they imagine, to much higher matters], but others from sheer laziness and care for their paunches, assuming no other relation to this business than if they were pastors and preachers, for their bellies' sake, and had nothing to do but, to [spend and] consume their emoluments as long as they live, as they have been accustomed to do under the Papacy. ..." - http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=950
    ...
     
    #114 Alofa Atu, Jun 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    As many goofs as EGW made, it's quite apparent she was NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit. (Not "ghost") She wrote from her own imagination.
     
  16. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Several major errors and misrepresentations here.

    Time Index 15:35 - 16:37 -- "... Death and resurrection [webpage changes to adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental-beliefs/restoration/death-and-resurrection/ ]. What about what they believe about that. They say this, "... Death is an unconscious state for all people. ..." So, Hitler, torturers, devils, whatever they are. They die, and they're just resting. There is no 'hell'. There is no judgment. The resurrection is just for people that God likes, that He ~ that believes He ~ they did good, He raises them. Ev~, [scene cut] Everybody El~, Everybody else ceases to exist only. 'Course you know from the Bible that, u~, uh, people burn in the lake of fire, those who reject Jesus Christ, with everlasting fire in the presence of ~ of ~ of the Lamb. The Bible says, 'Everlasting fire.' And they're there for ever and ever. That's what the Bible says. Now, White [Ellen G White] says, 'Well, it doesn't go with the heart of a loving God, and I don't think that makes sense.' Well, that may be so, but we don't discern the Bible on my [br. George Antonios] good sense, but on what the Bible says. ..."​

    Seventh-day Adventist believe in and teach both 'hell' and 'hellfire', even the 'lake of fire', and the 'torment' of the finally impenitent.


    It's even on the very webpage you were quoting from and misrepresented. Read it again - The State of the Dead: From Death to Life

    "The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Job 19:25-27; Ps. 146:3, 4; Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10; Dan. 12:2, 13; Isa. 25:8; John 5:28, 29; 11:11-14; Rom. 6:23; 6:16; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 20:1-10.)"​

    Furthermore, from - Making Sense of the Millennium | Adventist.org

    "... At the end of the millennium, all of the wicked will be resurrected. Revelation 20:5 says, “The rest of the dead [the wicked] did not come to life [were not resurrected] until the thousand years were ended. Verse 7 says that “when the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison.” ..."

    "... In Revelation 20:8, Satan gathers the wicked for battle, and they try to attack the New Jerusalem. At this point, Satan still has not abandoned the purpose he has pursued through out the millennia of earth’s history; his purpose is to defeat God and make his rulership of the world permanent.

    However, God will interrupt Satan’s strategy. John says, “I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it…. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. … The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books” (Revelation 20:11, 12). This scene also reveals the reason why the wicked are raised to life after the millennium—so they can be judged for their evil deeds and condemned once and for all.

    Following the judgment of the wicked, they will be destroyed in a lake of fire. However, Peter also describes this lake of fire, and he says that the earth itself will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10-12). Thus, hell is not off in some distant part of the universe, it is not in the center of the earth and it is not happening now. Hell will be the destruction of the entire planet by fire at the end of the millennium. The lake of fire in Revelation 20:14, 15 is followed immediately by the re-creation of our planet into “a new heaven and a new earth” (Revelation 21:1). Peter used the very same language when, after describing the destruction of the world by fire, he said that there will be “a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13). Some people argue that the wicked will burn in hell throughout eternity.

    However, since hell and the lake of fire that destroys the earth are one and the same, hell cannot last forever if the world is to be re- created as the home of the righteous.

    The good news about the millennium is that at its conclusion evil will be completely cleansed from the earth and from the universe. All wars, natural disasters, pain and weeping will be a thing of the past (Revelation 21:4), and God’s people will enjoy fellowship with God, Jesus and the angels throughout all eternity. ..."​

    Additionally - From Life to Death: What Really Happens when you Die?

    "... 3. Death is an unconscious state (a “sleep”): In order to understand what happens when we die, it is helpful to understand how God created the first inhabitants of this earth. At Creation, God breathed the “breath of life” into “the dust of the ground” (nonliving matter), and “man became a living being” (Gen. 2:7). Note that there is a formula here: Dust + Breath of Life = Living Being (soul). The word “soul” (used in some translations) refers simply to a living person. Similarly, when a person dies they “return to the ground,” for as Scripture explains, “dust you are and to dust you will return” (Gen. 3:19). The “breath of life,” also known as the “spirit,” returns o God (Eccl. 12:7; Ps. 146:3, 4). The Bible does not teach that people have a separate conscious immortal part of their being that continues to exist after death.

    At death, all consciousness ends. The dead person does not know anything and does not do anything (Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10). Jesus and the apostles (as well as writers in the Old Testament) frequently referred to death as sleep (e.g., Matt. 9:24; Mark 5:39; John 11:11-14; 1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 2 Peter 3:4; Dan. 12:2; Job 14:10-12; Ps. 13:3). The image of sleep emphasizes that death is not the end, but is rather an unconscious state prior to the resurrection (note in this regard the resurrection of Lazarus in John 11:11-14, 23-25, 43). ..."

    "... 6. The unrepentant will be resurrected after the millennium to face judgment: The unrepentant are not resurrected at the second coming of Jesus. They remain “sleeping” in an unconscious state until the end of the millennium, at which time they are resurrected (see Rev. 20:5). This resurrection occurs before the final judgment (verses 12, 13). It seems only fitting that those who are to be judged will be present when the final verdict is given. Jesus speaks of this time: “For a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out— those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned” (John 5:28, 29).

    7. The punishment of the unrepentant is called the second death: After the final judgment the unrepentant receive their punishment. This punishment is called the second death. “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14, 15; see also 21:8). The Bible also uses words such as “perishing” and “destruction” in speaking of the ultimate fate of the unrepentant (e.g., 
2 Peter 3:7, 9; John 3:16; Heb. 10:28; Mal. 4:1). These descriptions confirm that the second death refers to annihilation (or extinction) of the unrepentant, rather than a continual and eternal conscious torment.

    8. Death itself will be destroyed in the end: Death is a cruel and bitter enemy. However, it will be overcome. As 
1 Corinthians 15:26 clearly states: “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” (see also Rev. 20:14). The book of Revelation describes what eternity will be like for the saved: “There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Rev. 21:4). ..."​
     
    #116 Alofa Atu, Jun 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  17. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Several major errors and misrepresentations here.

    Time Index 15:35 - 16:37 -- previously cited​

    Seventh-day Adventist believe in and teach both 'hell' and 'hellfire', even the 'lake of fire', and the 'torment' of the finally impenitent.


    Ellen G White herself, wrote on numerous occasions about "hell" and the "lake of fire", and the "torment" that goes with it:

    "... “Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.” “The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.” “Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass—a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men—“the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.” Isaiah 34:8. ..." - The Great Controversy (1911), page 672.2 - The Great Controversy, Page 672 -- Ellen G. White Writings

    What she wrote against, and rightly so was "eternal torment" (a doctrine of devils), and death as merely an "eternal sleep" (which you br. Antonios, wrongly say we teach. You have misrepresented us greatly. The research you did was very poor, unscholarly, and, I pray, ignorantly misrepresentative.):


    "... Satan has ascribed to God all the evils to which flesh is heir. He has represented Him as a God who delights in the sufferings of His creatures, who is revengeful and implacable. It was Satan who originated the doctrine of eternal torment as a punishment for sin, because in this way he could lead men into infidelity and rebellion, distract souls, and dethrone human reason. ..." - Counsels To Parents, Teachers, and Students, page 27.2 - Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, Page 27 -- Ellen G. White Writings

    "... Satan takes advantage of still another class, and leads them still further to deny the existence of God. They can see no consistency in the character of the God of the Bible, if he will torment a portion of the human family to all eternity in horrible tortures; and they deny the Bible and its Author, and regard death as an eternal sleep. ..." - Spiritual Gifts, Volume 1, page 116.1 - Spiritual Gifts, vol. 1, Page 116 -- Ellen G. White Writings

    As for the matter of "eternal fire", it is God who is the "eternal fire" (Deuteronomy 33:27; Romans 1:20; Hebrews 9:14; 1 John 1:2; Deuteronomy 4:24). God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7), but those cities are not still burning, though God still lives. Sodom and Gomorrah burnt up into smoke and ashes, just as scripture states happens to the finally impenitent (Malachi 4:3; Psalms 7:9; Ezekiel 28:19, etc).


    It is the Righteous who will eternally dwell with God, who is “a Spirit” [John 4:24 KJB], and “the Holy Spirit” the fullness of “fire” [Acts 2:3; Revelation 1:4; 4:5 KJB], who “baptize” with “fire” [Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49; Luke 3:16 KJB], thus we will dwell with “everlasting burnings” [Isaiah 33:14 KJB], for God is a “consuming fire” [to sin and of “Love”] [Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29; 1 John 4:8,16 KJB] and a “fire goeth before Him” [Psalms 97:3 KJB] which “shall devour before Him” [Psalms 50:3 KJB] and “he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire” [Lamentations 2:3 KJB], and for those whom He loves He is a “wall of fire round about” [Zechariah 2:5 KJB] and His “ministers a flame of fire” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 KJB] and His “tongue as a devouring fire” [Isaiah 30:7 KJB] His speech “fire” [2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8; Jeremiah 20:9; Acts 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJB], His “eyes … as a flame of fire” [Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 19:12 KJB], His “face as the sun” and His “feet a pillar of fire” [Matthew 17:2; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Revelation 1:15, 2:18, 10:1 KJB], for He is a “refiners fire” [Malachi 3:2 KJB] having a “throne of fire” [Psalms 89:36; Daniel 7:9; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Revelation 4:5 KJB], His Ten Commandments a “Fiery Law” [Deuteronomy 33:2; Ezekiel 28:14,16 KJB] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire [Revelation 15:2 KJB], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [Exodus 3:3 KJB], for He is “Light”, even the Light of all.
    However, the wicked are never immortal, for they are to be burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished forever; Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4 KJB.

    There is no such thing as "eternal torment" in scripture. As for Revelation 20:10, see the word "aiwn", in its proper context and use throughout scripture in regards temporal things - Questions for Adventist as "aiwn" can indeed come to an end. One must define "for ever and ever" by Bible definition, not by modern thinking. To merely consider it in the use of the righteous, and their eternal life, is a misuse.
     
    #117 Alofa Atu, Jun 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  18. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Several major errors and misrepresentations here.

    Time Index 15:35 - 16:37 -- previously cited​

    Seventh-day Adventist believe in and teach both 'hell' and 'hellfire', even the 'lake of fire', and the 'torment' of the finally impenitent.


    The quote you are more than likely thinking of that Ellen G White said (though you would do well to cease from paraphrasing, and actually use proper quotations in context), is:

    "... How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!" {GC 535.1}

    Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. [536] {GC 535.2}

    What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing unceasing tortures; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God's hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe. Oh, dreadful blasphemy! As if God's hatred of sin is the reason why it is perpetuated. For, according to the teachings of these theologians, continued torture without hope of mercy maddens its wretched victims, and as they pour out their rage in curses and blasphemy, they are forever augmenting their load of guilt. God's glory is not enhanced by thus perpetuating continually increasing sin through ceaseless ages. {GC 536.1}

    It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. {GC 536.2}

    The theory of eternal torment is one of the false doctrines that constitute the wine of the abomination of Babylon, of which she makes all nations drink. Revelation 14:8; 17:2. That ministers of Christ should have accepted this heresy and proclaimed it from the sacred desk is indeed a mystery. They received it from Rome, as they received the false sabbath. True, it has been taught by great and good men; but the light on this subject had not come to them as it has come to us. They were responsible only for the light which shone in their time; we are accountable for that which shines in our day. If we turn from the testimony of God's word, and accept [537] false doctrines because our fathers taught them, we fall under the condemnation pronounced upon Babylon; we are drinking of the wine of her abomination. {GC 536.3}

    A large class to whom the doctrine of eternal torment is revolting are driven to the opposite error. They see that the Scriptures represent God as a being of love and compassion, and they cannot believe that He will consign His creatures to the fires of an eternally burning hell. But holding that the soul is naturally immortal, they see no alternative but to conclude that all mankind will finally be saved. Many regard the threatenings of the Bible as designed merely to frighten men into obedience, and not to be literally fulfilled. Thus the sinner can live in selfish pleasure, disregarding the requirements of God, and yet expect to be finally received into His favor. Such a doctrine, presuming upon God's mercy, but ignoring His justice, pleases the carnal heart and emboldens the wicked in their iniquity. {GC 537.1} ..." - The Great Controversy (1911), page 535.1 - 537.1 - The Great Controversy, Page 535 -- Ellen G. White Writings
     
  19. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Several major errors and misrepresentations here.

    Time Index 15:35 - 16:37 -- previously cited

    Seventh-day Adventist believe in and teach both 'hell' and 'hellfire', even the 'lake of fire', and the 'torment' of the finally impenitent.

    Finally, we do not teach "eternal torment", neither that death is simply an "eternal sleep". Let's look at Rev 20 in context:

    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

    We come to a place which seemingly teaches 'eternal torment' ("...shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.. ..." ), that is until the context and words are studied.

    So, this text does directly speak of "torment". This is never denied, but always accepted. Torment does indeed go with the final 'reward' of the wicked. Jesus, who suffered for all sin, is the example. He suffered (was tormented) unto death. So too the wicked, even as the unrepentant thief next to Him did also experience.

    The "day and night" speaks to the time portion/element of the "torment", in that it will be ongoing (without reprieve) until the job is done (ashes), with some being tormented unto death shorter or longer depending on their deeds done (God is Just). This also speaks to the unquenchable part of the "fire" aspect, in that the wicked cannot put out the fire, nor deliver themselves from it. They shall be consumed in it unto "ashes" (see previous texts cited).

    The "for ever and ever" part is connected to the "day and night" and "torment" and "fire" in the "lake", in that it means moment to moment (αιωνας των αιωνων; aiwnas twn aiwnwn). In other words there is not a moment that the wicked shall not suffer in the unquenchable fire (lake thereof), until they are carcasses unto ashes. This cannot last eternally, as God is going to create the New Heavens and New Earth where all of that is taking place.

    The confusion comes in how the Bible (KJB) uses the words "for ever and ever". The Bible (KJB) does not always use this to mean 'eternal'. It can speak to just a few moments, 3 days, eternal or even distance (when time is not involved).

    Can an "αιων" [aiwn, aeon, in either time, distance or space] come to an end? Yes, even as Paul shows in Hebrews:

    Hebrew 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Hebrew 9:26 KJB - επει εδει αυτον πολλακις παθειν απο καταβολης κοσμου νυν δε απαξ επι συντελεια των αιωνων εις αθετησιν αμαρτιας δια της θυσιας αυτου πεφανερωται​

    Notice, "end of the world [aeon]". Notice again:

    Titus 2:12 KJB - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    Titus 2:12 KJB - παιδευουσα ημας ινα αρνησαμενοι την ασεβειαν και τας κοσμικας επιθυμιας σωφρονως και δικαιως και ευσεβως ζησωμεν εν τω νυν αιωνι

    Notice, "in this present world [aeon]", which indicates that there is an end to the current "world", or existence, and another "world" [aeon], or existence, to follow after it. Thus and "aeon" can come to an end, and is not necessarily eternal. See also "since the world began", "before this world", "this present evil world", "this world", in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, Matthew 13:39-40 (2), Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20, Mark 4:19, Mark 10:30, Luke 1:70, Luke 16:8, Luke 18:30, Luke 20:34-35 (2), John 9:32, Acts 3:21, Acts 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (4), 1 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 8:13, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 1:21, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:21, Ephesians 6:12, 1 Timothy 6:17, 2 Timothy 4:10, Tit 2:12, Hebrews 6:5, Hebrews 9:26; and etc. We now see that "aeon's" can begin, and end, and are not always ongoing without ceasing, and thus context always determines the length, distance, existence, etc.

    Notice how the Bible uses the word "for ever":

    Jonah 2:6 KJB - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

    Jonah 2:6 (2:7) (so-called) LXX - κατέβην εἰς γῆν, ἧς οἱ μοχλοὶ αὐτῆς κάτοχοι αἰώνιοι, καὶ ἀναβήτω φθορὰ ζωῆς μου, κύριε ὁ θεός μου.​

    In both distance and time, it is impossible for the word "for ever" in Jonah to be eternal, or without end. Not only does earth have limited space [thus "ends of the earth", dry land is earth, see Genesis 1], but Jonah was only 3 days and 3 nights, timewise, in the belly:

    Jonah 1:17 KJB - Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.​

    Therefore, in either case, "for ever" is limited, in this instance, in distance and time.

    In Deuteronomy 23:3 KJB, “forever” means 10 generations. It can also mean “as long as he lives,” or “to death.”; thus see 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14 KJB.

    Therefore, to attempt to use Revelation 20:10 to teach eternal torment, one must ignore the immediate context of where the sinners are all at, must choose to ignore where God creates the New Heavens and New Earth, must choose to ignore the passages which teach that all sinners become "ashes" after being "tormented" and "burned", must have a skewed idea of the Justness and Justice of God, must choose to think that all sin is equally punished with torment (eternally) rather than torment according to their deeds done, and choose to ignore that the wages for sin is ultimately "death", not being alive, must be ignorant of the sin and sinners represented in the Sanctuary (Psalms 77:13, 73:17) service, and one must be either ignorant or choose to ignore what the Bible teaches about the use of the word "aiwn" in OT and NT usage, and choose to define "for ever" by their own definition, and or confuse eternal life (which the wicked never have) and the "for ever" they live, with the wicked's reward.
     
  20. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Several major errors and misrepresentations here.

    Time Index 15:35 - 16:37 -- previously cited

    Seventh-day Adventist believe in and teach both 'hell' and 'hellfire', even the 'lake of fire', and the 'torment' of the finally impenitent.

    Finally, we do not teach "eternal torment", neither that death is simply an "eternal sleep". Let's look at Rev 20 in context:

    Indeed, "eternal Judgment". See my previous citations. Gone forever.

    The Lake of Fire - Revelation 20, the annihilation of the wicked:

    Context:

    Please read these texts together, what do you see [ignore for a moment the chapter division]?

    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

    While Revelation 21:1 states that in the New Heaven and New Earth there will be no more "sea" [water, the vast chasm of] as such we have now [due to the flood of Noah], with restless waves, separating friends and loved ones, but instead broad rivers, etc, as per:

    Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
    Isaiah 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
    Isaiah 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
    Isaiah 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
    Isaiah 33:18 Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?
    Isaiah 33:19 Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.
    Isaiah 33:20 Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.
    Isaiah 33:21 But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

    [see also Ezekiel 47:1-6]

    Isaiah 33:22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
    Isaiah 33:23 Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.
    Isaiah 33:24 And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.
    The text also reveals that the "lake of fire", even the fiery "sea" will have passed away also [for to "pass away", is to "die"], for it was upon this old earth, look again [ignore the chapter break for a moment, just read it straight through]:

    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

    In scripture, a "Sea" = "Lake" [whether of water, fire, etc]:

    Luke 5:1 - "the lake of Gennesaret" [see "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11, [see also "Chinnereth" [Deuteronomy 3:17; Joshua 19:35] or "sea of Chinneroth" [Joshua 12:3], or "of Gennesaret" [Matthew 14:34; Mark 6:53]; Matthew 8:27; Mark 4:39,41 uses the word "sea" and John 6:1 says, "sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias".

    The very word "lake" in the Koine Greek in Revelation 20:14,15 is λιμνην [limnen].

    G3041 [only used in the Koine Greek of the NT, I didn't find it in the (so-called) LXX either]

    λίμνη limnē
    Total KJB Occurrences: 10

    lake, 10

    Luke 5:1-2 (2), 8:22-23 (2),33;

    Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15 (2), 21:8​

    See also the alternate word for "sea":

    G2281 [its also in the (so-called) LXX, in the very places of the "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11,12 (so-called) [LXX], etc]

    θάλασσα thalassa

    Total KJB Occurrences: 95

    sea
    , 93

    Mat_4:15, Mat_4:18 (2), Mat_8:24, Mat_8:26-27 (2), Mat_8:32, Mat_13:1, Mat_13:47, Mat_14:24-26 (3), Mat_15:29, Mat_17:27, Mat_18:6, Mat_21:21, Mar_1:15-16 (3), Mar_2:13, Mar_3:7, Mar_4:1 (3), Mar_4:39, Mar_4:41, Mar_5:1, Mar_5:13 (2), Mar_5:21, Mar_6:47-49 (3), Mar_7:31, Mar_9:42, Mar_11:23, Luk_17:2, Luk_17:6, Luk_21:25, Joh_6:1 (2), Joh_6:16-19 (4), Joh_6:22, Joh_6:25, Joh_21:1, Joh_21:7, Act_4:24, Act_7:36, Act_10:6, Act_10:32, Act_14:15, Act_17:14, Act_27:30, Act_27:38, Act_27:40, Act_28:4, Rom_9:27, 1Co_10:1-2 (2), 2Co_11:26, Heb_11:12, Heb_11:29, Jas_1:6, Jud_1:13, Rev_4:6, Rev_5:13, Rev_7:1-3 (3), Rev_8:8-9 (3), Rev_10:2, Rev_10:5-6 (2), Rev_10:8, Rev_12:12, Rev_13:1 (2), Rev_14:7, Rev_16:2-3 (4), Rev_18:17, Rev_18:19, Rev_18:21, Rev_20:8, Rev_20:13, Rev_21:1​

    red [sea], 2

    Act_7:36, Heb_11:29​

    Do you believe?

    Do you believe that the wicked will be at some point "ashes" by th fire/lake of fire?

    Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

    Do you believe that this fire/lake of fire only burns up the 'body' unto "ashes"?

    Do you believe that something of the person [an immortal essence, or whatever] continues to exist after the 'body' is long gone as "ashes"?

    If so, how does this physical fire, bring any further 'never-ending' torments to this non-corpse [non-body] entity?

    Where do these wicked non-body [non-corpse] entities exist for and ever?

    Do you believe that Satan has a physical body? If no, how does the physical fire of Revelation 20 [etc] affect him and his angels? How, would he and they become "ashes" [Ezekiel 28:18 KJB]?

    Definition, please.

    How do you understand the words "2nd death" [definitionally]?

    From the scriptural perspective, based upon the definitions given to me in scripture, the 2nd death, is oblivion. A death from which there is no return to life, in any form whatsoever. It is a ceasing to be altogether.

    Is there torment leading up to this death?

    Absolutely, but as stated and shown before, the torment/suffering and the final ending, death, are two things, one limited in duration leading into the finality and eternity of the other.

    When I read "death" in scripture it means no life, at all.

    For instance, when speaking of the spiritual death, ie "dead in trespasses and sins" [Ephesians 2:1], it means there is no spiritual life whatsoever, not even a little. It is as without form and void of life as this world was in Genesis.

    Therefore, when I read of the second death, can you explain to me, how the wicked will have continued existence, by what means, and by what scriptural reasons?

    Did Jesus suffer [limited, though on a scale we cannot ever comprehend] and die for the sin of the world?
     
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