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Of Freedom of the Will

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jan 4, 2019.

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  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The single significant difference among those who are believers is the matter of freedom of the will when it comes to the consideration of salvation.

    Often some state that the unsaved must exercise a freedom of choice and such select Scripture were offers of choice were made, and therefore claiming that God would be unjust to offer a choice and then withhold some elemental level of ability to reject or accept that offer.

    Others state that the unsaved have no such freedom of choice but are chosen first by God to be saved and given such as is necessary that the will of God in the choice be accomplished.

    This thread seeks to have those who cling to one side or the other offer such Scriptures of support so that the other side will contend with their own Scriptures of refutation.

    To help in focusing what the poster's might present, perhaps there are three positions on this matter.
    However, there are agreed upon items that do not need presented, they are already agreed parameters. If you dispute one of these three parameters, then you need to explain why.

    First, it is understood that all humankind have the ability to make choices. Even the most wicked person can select what to that person seems as the best choice. However, the capacity to carry through or to acquire/achieve the choice is questionable. It is based upon many factors such as education, intellect, opportunity, skill, health, ... the list could continue for a lengthy period.

    Second, it is understood that all humankind have the Decalogue written upon their hearts. That means that from Adam all humankind knew right from wrong and had some concept of a higher authority. Such is seen in every culture of the world despite the Scriptures. All peoples have some form of worship, some form of governing statues, some form of what the individuals aspire and are held accountable, and what punishments are inflicted if such is violated.

    Third, it is understood that not a single human or society of itself have such sufficient attainment that Christ was not needed. That is the keeping of laws (even the Law of God) never resulted in salvation nor the offer of salvation. No matter the hope, the work, the level of dedication, there was never a paring of salvation to whatever that social grouping considered acceptable. The law is a schooling but is insufficient to graduate to Christian.

    The Scriptures state, both in Galatians (6) and Romans (3) that no flesh can be justified by the law. However, the Law makes that person aware of sin - NOT CHRIST - that is the need for what the Law cannot attain, the Christ. Christ stands "apart" (separate, outside the parameters or influence) from the Law.

    Three Positions: Take ONE and give Scriptures for that which you "choose" to support:

    When it comes to those who support the "Freedom of the Will" there then must be a bridge, a reconciliation that is first offered to either lift the unbelieving into the ability to express "outside the parameters, separate, apart" that a choice be made. For convenience to the thread, I have separated the thinking of this grouping into two subgroups: One holds that the unbelieving are not innately born with such an ability but lifted up into that ability. The other holds that such is already an acquired skill as part of the innate human ability given to each person.

    1) The change of inability to ability to choose righteousness is generally considered as that offered to individuals along with the reconciliation. This ability is couched in terms such as "prevenient" or "preceding grace." Although no such ability is ever named or described in the Scriptures, it is a human construction that is required by those who hold to "Freedom of the Will" as a hallmark of human expression and yet know that the Scriptures teach that the human has no such innate ability or freedom within themselves.

    2) Again, there are those who hold that such ability is simply innate and part of the human condition in which God as being a fair player in the drama of life automatically bestows upon all people at birth. They play with the "fairness" of God not to allow any to be born with no chance at eternal life. That part of the core character of God is "fairness."

    3) On the other side of the issue of "Freedom of the Will" are those who consider both of the above (the prevenient/preceding grace and the innate ability) as not valid according to Scriptures. They fundamentally hold that God selects those in whom He appoints to salvation. That He authors salvation and finishes salvation according to His good pleasure and for His own purpose.

    These folks generally consider that humankind are held in bondage to the old will. That such can only choose within what is offered and determined as either good or bad within the boundaries of the old will. That the old will has no comprehension of nor determination to perceive that which is beyond good - righteousness. It is enough that they may at best be sufficiently conditioned to even grasp that the Law is insufficient. (Example: the rich young ruler and Nicodemus both knew the Law was inefficient to gain eternal life.

    This group is further separated into a group that holds that salvation brings a new will - not that the old is remade, modified, supplanted or destroyed, but that the old will be found unworthy and adversarial and must be repressed (killed off, dead) each day (more often in practical experience each moment of the day).

    To which do you subscribe and what Scriptures do you use to support your view?
     
  2. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    There is a forum for Calvinist propaganda, maybe you should use it...
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Because this is not a matter of support for or against what is in Calvinistic or non- Calvinistic thinking.

    Are you unknowing that some Calvinists do also subscribe to "prevenient grace" thinking?

    Do you have some Scriptures to embolden and support one of the three presentations concerning freedom of the will from the OP?
     
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  4. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Your Calvinistic "attacks" (teachings, whatever you want to call it) against free will are a quite noticeable and frequent MO of yours in this forum, which is why I decide to address it. The truth is that simple...

    There is a proper forum for this subject.
     
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  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Do you find fault in the presentation of the Op?

    Did I not present the “truth” of the typical thinking concerning all sides of the “freedom of the will” views?

    You argue placement, then when shown that the OP was in truth NOT a concern for some Calvinism or non-Calvinism scheme, you return not to contribute concerning the OP, rather you attack me.

    What would you consider of a poster who uses such a tactic?

    Are we to assume you have no real understanding of the OP but object because it makes you uncomfortable?

    Perhaps, you would like to explain just which or what you hold as concerns the subject of the OP?

    The simple truth that you can apply the truth of Scriptures to support.
     
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Or one can just read martin Luther on the Bondage of the Human Will and get what scriptures state on this issue!
     
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  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Something missing in the English language and culture is "Middle Voice" such as in koine Greek.

    Where The reflexive "I" is replaced by (God and I) as a single unit.

    Best described ironically enough in a Hebrew scripture:
    Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    If there is human freedom of the will it must be in a union with the will of God. No, I can't explain it.
     
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  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20 NKJV


    Can, one of the creation, by the freedom of his will, remove himself from this futility or is his removal found, in hope?

    Is, hope, salvation? Redemption from futility? Redeemed from death? Adoption as a son of God?

    To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal 4:5
    The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 1 Cor 15:56

    So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. ------- Hope?


    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    The creation was subjected, to futility, not willingly.


    Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God..
     
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  9. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Hank,
    Do you see who is being spoken to, in the verse above?
    Starting at Isaiah 1:1:

    " The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah." ( Isaiah 1:1 )

    " The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib: [but] Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
    4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity,a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters:they have forsaken the Lord,they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger,
    they are gone away backward."
    ( Isaiah 1:3-4 )

    Inserted back into the text:

    " Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
    17 learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
    18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
    19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
    20 but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken [it]."
    ( Isaiah 1:16-20 )

    Continuing on:

    " How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
    22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
    23 thy princes [are] rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them."
    ( Isaiah 1:21-23 )



    Who are the "my people", "sinful nation", "people laden with iniquity", "children that are corrupters", "they", "them", "you", "your", "us", "ye", "faithful city" and "thy" referring to?


    All men indiscriminately, or God's covenant nation of Israel?;)
     
    #9 Dave Gilbert, Jan 6, 2019
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  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Now do Ezekiel 36.

    26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
     
  11. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    How about we do Ezekiel 11:19 first?;)

    " And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:" ( Ezekiel 11:19 )

    Who is being spoken of here?
    For that, let's go back a few verses:

    " Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
    15 Son of man, thy brethren, [even] thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, [are] they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the Lord: unto us is this land given in possession.
    16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
    17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
    18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
    19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
    20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
    21 But [as for them] whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord God.
    " ( Ezekiel 11:14-21 )

    Verse 20:
    " They shall be my people and I shall be their God."
    Please see Jeremiah 31:31-34, Jeremiah 32:38, Hebrews 8:7-13 and several others.

    The new covenant includes being born again and having the Spirit of God placed into His people, instead of resting on them, or them being filled with it for a season.


    It's a double prophecy ( at least partly ).:Cool

    Ezekiel's earthly brethren are the children of Israel...but His spiritual brethren are all believers in the one true God and His Christ.
    The angel told John that the prophets, including Ezekiel, were his brethren:

    " Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." ( Revelation 22:9 )

    Everyone that is "of God" is born again.
    They have had their stony heart taken out, and a heart of flesh given to them.:)
     
    #11 Dave Gilbert, Jan 6, 2019
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  12. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Now, let's do Ezekiel 36:26:


    " But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
    22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
    23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
    28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."
    ( Ezekiel 36:21-28 )


    Again, a double prophecy ( or at least partly, IMO ).:Cool
    God's earthly people are returning to Israel now, and have been for decades...God's spiritual people will return to Israel at the second coming.



    Ezekiel's brethren are both the house of Israel in the earthly sense, and the "Israel of God" in the spiritual sense.
    The promise is to them and to all believers...saved Israelites who are of the original olive tree, and saved Gentiles who were grafted into the olive tree by God ( Romans 11:13-27 ).

    They will rule and reign with Christ at Jerusalem when Christ comes again, and will inhabit the land of their forefathers...
    Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the forefathers of Israel in the physical sense, and the forefathers of "Israel" in the spiritual sense.

    All believers have Abraham as their "father", in the spiritual sense ( Romans 4 ).
    ...and God as their Father in the eternal sense.:)

    All believers make up the "Israel of God" ( Galatians 6:15-16 ), both Jew and Gentile.
    People out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ).
    Everyone who is born again has a new heart and has had the Spirit of God put into them.;)


    May God bless you in abundance, sir.:)
     
    #12 Dave Gilbert, Jan 6, 2019
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  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Its a general principle known from the beginning.

    God reasoned with Cain.
    Genesis 4
    5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
    6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
    7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
     
  14. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    I agree.

    God reasoned with Cain, reasoned with Israel, and reasons with men all the time... through the witness of Creation, through His providence, and through His acts of goodness and mercy in this life.
    Mankind is led to repentance by God constantly:

    " Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" ( Romans 2:4 )



    But Scripture doesn't stop there:

    " but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;" ( Romans 2:5 )
    Mankind's hardness of heart treasures up wrath against the day of wrath.
    We will not repent unless God does a miraculous work.:(



    Therein is the grace and mercy of God on sinners.:)
     
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  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Here is another which I love:

    2 Timothy 2
    24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
     
  16. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    As do I.

    If God, peradventure, will give them repentance.;)

    We are totally at his mercy because of our bustedness.
    We, as a race, messed up pretty bad.:(


    That's why we need a Saviour. :Thumbsup
     
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  17. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Well, I think it would be helpful to do that.

    From my perspective of being on this forum for the past 6 months, very few that seem to support the idea that man's freedom of choice actually results in being saved, can present any Scriptures that declare it in no uncertain terms.
    There also seems to be very little in the way of ability to build a case for it from Scripture, as well.

    Agreed.

    Agreed.

    "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
    )" ( Romans 2:14-15 )

    Agreed.


    *EDIT*
    I'm not sure why there's objection from some that this constitutes a "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism" debate, or should be moved to that set of threads...since all in this area are Baptists, and this subject seems to be a Baptist issue, why not leave it in Baptist Theology and Bible Study?

    Historically, Baptists have encompassed both sides of the tracks ( in the beginning, I believe that most were Particulars, if memory serves, and then later on broke into Generals and Particulars )...so why take it to the CvA threads?

    I don't see any reason to consign the "Calvinists" to that place every time a subject comes up that historically is Baptist in its content...no matter who objects.
    Personally, I don't demand that those who identify as "Arminians" / "Traditionalists" / "non-Calvinists" take it to the CvA threads when they bring up their free will or general atonement comments.;)

    So, it seems to me that, what's "good for the goose is good for the gander". :)
     
    #17 Dave Gilbert, Jan 6, 2019
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  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Benjamin’s tag states:
    Free will is defined as “volition” and this sustains the meaning that man has the ability to consciously choose; one cannot do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If man's response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the man then man's volition logically becomes void. ~Benjamin
    First, I have the freedom of addressing this statement because it was part of the post made by Benjamin on this thread.

    Second, there is no disagreement with “ability to consciously choose.”

    What is disagreeable is assumption that the Scriptures agree that one cannot “have both the ability and not have the ability” to choose.

    From a purely human perspective, it is very much possible to choose, yet have the inability. Such is often seen in the word “prerequisite.”

    A student may certainly choose, yet must first meet the requirements, and therefore are excluded from the ability to choose.

    In the area of Spiritual, it is truly sad to reflect on the vast numbers who choose to keep all the demands of the “Law thinking that in them is found righteousness,” yet those same have no ability granted to choose the righteousness of God.


    Therefore, humankind have ability to choose of all that humankind have authority of which to choose, for there is in all matters that word, “prerequisite.” “Prerequisite” impacts all manner of limiting the ability to choose to that offered in which the qualifications are met.

    The statement by Benjamin, without regard to the prerequisite(s), ultimately fails for it disregards the full parameters involved in “freedom of choice and more particularly the “freedom” of self determination - volition. No choosing (volition) is outside the parameters of prerequisite(s).

    Human kind do not have authority to choose righteousness, the best they may perform is to occasionally do right. “... all have come short...”

    To choose righteousness, there is a prerequisite, which is why some have constructed the thinking of prevenient/preceding grace.

    However, such a grace is not found in the Scriptures, but was a human construct attempting to bring human volition as the determiner of salvation. The prerequisite(s) that are then left and determined by the presenter, and not upon Scriptures. For example the presenter may state: one must repent, one must be baptized, one must call on the name of the Lord, one must ....


    Volition at any age and condition cannot be without prerequisite(s) in which determination is assessed as to the right, authority, and even the ability to choose much less with any determination of success.

    All “freedom of the will” has at least one prerequisite.
     
  19. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    LOL, the only problem you have to overcome in your "human perspective" to support your deterministic views is simple logical truth. But, I get where your argument is coming from (“Compatibility” the desperate -yet illogical- attempt to reconcile determinism and free will/volition (logically mutually exclusive actions) to avoid theological fatalism), I really do. In fact, I’ve heard the arguments for compatibilism many times and in many forms. Here, I've broke the simple logic of your "requirements" for the ability to choose down for you :


    Calvinist: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."

    Free Will: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"

    Calvinist: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."

    Free Will: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"

    Calvinist: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."

    LOL...

    I think I'll stick to common sense and logical truths rather than your deterministic "teachings", but thanks.
     
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  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Again this isn’t a “Calvinist debate, for again, some Calvinist ascribe to prevenient grace thinking. And non-Cal’s certainly do.

    In your quoted presentation, you did not refute that no freedom of the will from child to adult, no matter the education or lack,..., can express freedom of the will, free volition, freedom of choice without prerequisite(s) that restrict and modify the volition.

    That leaves no actual real totally free volition - ability. Rather, either the acceptance of a human scheme referred to as prevenient grace which acknowledges freedom of the will with prerequisite(s) (limited choice selection to what is available, or a scheme of no freedom of the will but a new will not to replace but combat the old.

    Either case, the freedom your scheme presented was faulty for it denies that in all freedom choices there must be prerequisite(s) which demand modification of the ability to choose - thus no actual freedom of the will.

    Does not the desire to refuse “deterministic views” hinder the acknowledgement that “prerequisite(s)” are applied making all views “deterministic?”
     
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