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Of Freedom of the Will

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jan 4, 2019.

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  1. Lodic

    Lodic Member

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    Thank you, IoDebar. While I totally agree that Christ cannot be crucified again, I don't agree with the "Once Saved, Always Saved" idea. Besides the verse above, I also see the danger of losing salvation in Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries".
    I am interested in your interpretation. Also, as I am new, should this be addressed in this discussion, or should we start a new one regarding OSAS? What are the rules about "rabbit trails"?
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Nothing chiseled in granite.
    Associated ideas sometimes wonder exceedingly from the original O/P.

    But OSAS is a perennial subject here at the BB with violence sometimes :) Not really - but it would probably beg for a new thread even under the auspices of Freedom of the Will.
     
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  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    new thread, any time .

    but realize the subjects are directly relayed and see how errors seems to rise again and again after a thread satisfies the posters. or at least discussion stops , acceptance of the points is a different matter
     
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  4. Lodic

    Lodic Member

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    Thanks. I don't want to break any protocols, even accidentally. From what I've read, the Baptist Board folks seem to handle different views very well. I used to have a "Disqus" account, but they argue and insult each other over there.
     
  5. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    Mat 6:10 KJV - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

    Luk 22:42 KJV - Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

    If you are of the opinion that man’s will, free or otherwise, is superior to or subdues God’s will, provide scriptural support. If you cannot, then I pray the Holy Spirit would convict you of your arrogance, causing you to become a willing servant of the Most High God and be found in His will.

    Pro 14:12 KJV - There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

    Pro 16:25 KJV - There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.


    Act 9:5 KJV - And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    Considered the phrase “hard to kick against the pricks”.

    Saul had been persecuting Christians and thereby the cause of Christ for some time. In order to do so, Saul was in defiance of God’s will by exercising his will. Based on how the Holy Spirit lead in my life, He had apparently dealt with Saul numerous times on the Spiritual level preparing Saul for this confrontation. On those occasions, when Saul continued to defy the Holy Spirits prodding, he was “kicking against the pricks”, much as a beast of burden would do in the field defying will of its master. (These thoughts are based on recall of a sermon Dr. Clearance Sands preached in the pulpit of 1st Baptist Church in San Jose, CA in the mid 1970’s.)

    God has never lost an elected member of His family to the will of another!
     
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  6. Lodic

    Lodic Member

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    I hope that I never come across as being arrogant, and I apologize if I have done so, Brother Wesley. I will try to address your points in order.

    "Thy will be done" in the Lord's Prayer is an appeal that our Father's will be done on the earth. This appeal is necessary because man's will is opposed to His will - e.g. crime, war, etc.

    In the Garden, Jesus acknowledges that He has not come to perform His own will, but to carry out His Father's will.

    By definition, nothing can be superior to God's will. That doesn't exclude rebellion against Him, though. What child has not rebelled against his parents? Our rebellious nature is proven by the passages from Proverbs you quoted.

    That sermon from the 70s must have made quite an impression on you, that you can still recall it. Dr. Sands (and you) make a very good point regarding kicking against the pricks. I agree completely.

    I suspect you were alluding to my objections to "Once Saved, Always Saved". (If not, I do apologize.) Besides the passages from Hebrews that I quoted, I will go to Revelation 22:18-19. As you recall, this is a warning that anyone who adds to or takes away from the "book of the prophecy" will lose his part from the tree of life. My point here is that his name cannot be removed unless it has first been added.

    Finally, you are absolutely right, Sir. God has never lost a member of His family to the will of another. Nobody can take your salvation away. However, that doesn't mean that you cannot reject His free gift in the same way that Esau rejected his own birthright. On that note, I need to get off my break and back to work. Looking forward to your reply when you get a chance.
     
  7. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    Lodic, Thanks for your reply. I had no particular person in mind when wrote my post. It was/is intended to share my thoughts concerning man's will, etc.

    Yes, as a Babe in Christ, the Holy Spirit used Dr. Sands in a mighty way to start me on my Spiritual journey.

    May God bless us as we continue to seek His will.
     
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  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Normally when reading Romans 7 and 8 we don't consider the statements in the context of "freedom of the will." (At least I don't)

    But there is application to the topic.

    The Scriptures start (Romans 7) calling the attention by example to the nature of being bound by law:
    2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
    This example of how the law binds. Not the law of Moses, but that which is written upon the heart of every person (see Romans 1)

    At first one reading would think that the writer is not speaking of "freedom of the will." But read on:
    4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
    Paul presents that prior to salvation, the ruler over us was the "sinful passions aroused by the law" bringing about death. That after salvation, there is a new ruler - not law - but the Spirit.

    It seems as though Paul is presenting that at no place is there a time when there is "freedom of the will."

    The writer continues:
    8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

    13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

    21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

    It seems that Paul was directly confronting the issue of this thread.

    He puts it in terms that is very hard to find any wiggle room from the position that one has "freedom of the will."

    He admits he desired to do right, but had no ability to carry it out.

    There are those who state that the unbeliever has no desire for righteousness. However, Paul isn't in agreement with such a position, but acknowledges the desire, but the lack of ability. His "freedom of the will" is shackled to "the law of the mind ... making me captive to the law of sin.

    Now, it must be pointed out that this passage is not an exclusive condition of the unbeliever, but also of the believer. For the last verse of this passage is the engagement of the intellectual, yet the actions of the flesh. Every believer has had that same condition, it is true that there is none who are without that struggle until we cross over.


    However, there is that opening chapter of Romans with this particularly interesting passage:
    Romans 2:
    6He will render to each one according to his works: 7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

    How does this conform to the topic of "freedom of the will" in light of Romans 7?
     
  9. Lodic

    Lodic Member

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    Would it be "freedom of the will" in the sense that we choose which master we serve? If we don't choose Christ, we are slaves of sin by default - but that is from our own choice. Gotta run - catch you tomorrow.
     
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This verse clearly show that it was a choice of whom to serve. The true God or some false God. They served the true God they lived. Serve the false god meant death.

    Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    Of course there is "freedom of the will" To choose what we desire. That freedom is clearly shown in the verses I presented. They choose to serve God or false gods.
    We all make choices every day. This country was formed to give us the freedom to worship the way we believe and choose. It would be sad indeed if we had no choice and the freedom to choose.
    I don't believe you can show from scripture that we have no freedom of choice.
    I thank God for our right to choose.
    MB
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    excellent question.

    The writer is a belier. As a believer he is writing Romans 7 and 8.

    As such, the same law of the flesh, that which is found as part of the human will (nature) resides in every believer and unbeliever.

    Romans 8 places the believer as victorious over the flesh, but such victory is totally by and through the Lord, and not by human effort and strength. Not that the believer should give up and sin (that more grace abound) but that the condition of the believer is that of "no condemnation."

    That provides the "unction" the "striving" to be no just clothed, but to wear the armor resisting the enemy of believers with the Word of God.
     
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  12. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    I agree, but not with respect to the believer.
    We choose to do His will, because it is He that works in us to do it ( Philippians 2:13 ).

    As I see it, in the prayer in your above quote ( Matthew 6:10 ), Jesus is submitting His will to His Father's...moving aside in order for His Father's will to be done, which is why He came to earth in the first place ( Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, Luke 22:42, John 5:30, John 6:38 ).
    This is a picture of what His sheep shall be like....for we are conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:29 ).

    I see Scripture stating that God does according to His will ( Daniel 4:35 and others ), and that we as believers submit ourselves to that will. :)

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." ( Matthew 7:21 ).
    " And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." ( 1 John 2:17 )

    Unbelievers?
    They don't.
    Their will is opposed to His will.:(
     
    #92 Dave Gilbert, Jan 8, 2019
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  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Are you mistaking service with salvation?

    Both the slave and the son serves, but service does not make the slave a son.

    Choosing to serve God (by following the prescription of the Mosaic Law) was not salvation, but prevented God from punishing folks for their rebellious spirit. But, the Law was never meant to deliver "righteousness." Such righteousness is only found in Christ.

    I don't think anyone mistakes "freedom to choose" as "freedom of the will."

    They are really not the same.

    As you very will point out, we all make choices every day. Christ said, that folks know how to select and give good gifts.

    What cannot be done is choose or select from what is not offered, or attainable.

    For example, a toddler may choose to drive the car, but cannot both steer and reach the pedals at the same time.

    One may certainly choose to "walk in the light" as John records that those who do not turn from the light do, however that is not eternal life.

    Rather, the prerequisite to what John states is the group from whom God selects as those He grants the authority (empowerment, power) to become His. (John 1)
     
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  14. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    The 1st Amendment gives the citizens of this country the right to worship or not worship as they see fit.

    The founders had no Biblical authority to grant mankind any such right.

    As a supposedly Christian nation, is freedom of worship a Biblical position?

    Reconcile that constitutional right with:

    Exo 20:2 KJV - I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

    Exo 20:3 KJV - Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    Deu 8:19 KJV - And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

    Deu 4:24 KJV - For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.

    Don't look to fallen mankind to find your spiritual direction through this world. The exercise of your "freewill" might lead to your eternal destruction. Mine would have if God had not intervened:

    Psa 40:2 KJV - He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
     
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  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I agreed therefore: Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    Righteousness unto life through faith of Jesus. Not what we believe about but through obedience of faith.

    The following obedience of faith: IMHO

    who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, -Heb 5:7,8---- Obedience of faith
    and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, , wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that is above every name, Phil 2:8,9
     
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  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    No one serves God who doesn't believe in God.
    Are you forgetting Abraham? Righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his service. He did what God told Him to do.

    Are you saying there was no Salvation for people in the old testament? If so then please tell me why we see the word Salvation so many times in the old testament. such as in;
    Mic_7:7 Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

    Old testament Saints were set aside they were not sent to hell to be punished for eternity because Christ hadn't brought the new covenant yet. You seem to say there was no Salvation before Christ.

    David said;
    Psa 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

    Obviously David had Salvation. To say it wasn't offered just isn't true.
    MB
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    So am I to understand that you are arguing Abraham was made righteous by his works? (Genesis 15:6)
     
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    How we worship and where would be correct. This right prevents government from dictating where when and how.
    MB
     
  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    No Abraham was imputed with righteousness from God.
    MB
     
  20. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    If Christ gives us eternal life how long does it last? There would be no eternal life for anyone if one could loose it. Please consider there is no pause or ending in eternal life other wise it would not be eternal.
    Mark wrote;
    Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
    Does all mean just the sins of our past or. does it mean all sins past present and future? If we could loose our salvation everyone would be lost. There is not one Christian who does not sin because we still have the old nature along with the new. Paul wrote about the solution to our sin after Salvation. It's called dying daily. In Romans 6.7.8.
    Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

    It may surprise you to consider what exactly is being talked about in Hebrews 10. The first verse in that chapter tells us.
    Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
    You see this chapter speaks of the covenant before Christ and what it was like. When Christ died for our sins this changed. Salvation became eternal other wise no one would ever get to heaven.
    The Law could not save only the blood of Christ can cleanse us of all our sins. The saved are no longer under the LAW
    MB
     
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