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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Gina B, Apr 13, 2006.

  1. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Really? That's interesting. You want to take from the rich and give to the poor by force through government. Nowhere does scripture justify such a notion.

    Not for absolute certain, but it would seem from many of your posts that you have somehow rationalized allegiance to a party/ideology that has legalized abortion as a central theme.

    Not sure how you support either of these things without "compartmentizing Jesus".

    No matter how you spin it, using gov't to take what isn't yours and give it to someone else has a name... stealing. Terminating the life of a "fetus" is a very sterile way of expressing support for the arbitrary murder of persons that someone finds inconvenient.
     
  2. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    How many British were killed by Germany in the 6 years prior to the Nazi invasion of Poland? How many Americans were killed?

    What I can tell you is that appeasement cost many more lives than acting with foresight and leadership.

    And... before we did so we had cities attacked, ships attacked, embassies attacked,.... We even had the bodies of American servicemen who trying to restore order in a muslim African nation rife with civil war mutilated for all the world to see. And yet our liberal reaction to Abu Ghraib was much louder than Mogadishu.

    Since Iraq, we have been killing and consuming the resources of our enemies in what they consider their home turf... rather than our backyards.

    You think you have given up more freedom than would be required if we went purely defensive? The only ways to prevent terrorism are to destroy them before they get here, monitor society thoroughly to prevent infiltration, or some type of combination of the two.

    I for one have no affinity for the idea that we should wait until Saddam found a way to realize his stated goal- to see more terrorism against the US... especially considering that he had already shown the capacity to develop and use WMD's. By all accounts, his sons were more evil than he is.

    But would you be willing to defend that Iraqi, yourself, and many others from tyranny, oppression, and, yes, death by fighting that terrorist. That is what we as a nation are doing.
    Boy am I ever glad you weren't in charge instead of Churchill.

    If we had waited for Iraq to attack... you very likely wouldn't have had the opportunity to "rethink". The 9/11 attacks threw our economy into a recession. Imagine what would happen if our 10 largest cities were hit with gas attacks or dirty nukes.

    Oh but you profess: Saddam wouldn't... he couldn't. He would as demonstrated by attacks on his neighbors and own citizens. He could as demonstrated by his past development of chemical/biological weapons and by the nuclear plans hidden by his scientists.
    Then you should certainly "rethink".

    Yes... and I have looked at pictures of Nazi concentration camp victims. I have seen pictures of those maimed and destroyed due to pre-WWII appeasement... the biggest difference other than clothing styles... is that the price of appeasement was about 600 times worse than even the worse estimates of what we have done in Iraq.

    Bringing it home, appeasement cost 291,000 Americans their lives. We have maybe 200,000 men devoted to the war against Islamofascists... Some 16 million had to leave home to defeat the Axis.

    Yes. It is a noble thing for the righteous to make a stand against the unrighteous... to liberate the oppressed... and to secure the peace over the oppressors.
    The majority of the Kurds that died horrible deaths from Chemical weapons attacks ordered by Saddam were innocent men, women, and children. Undoubtedly, he was a man who would have shown no discretion whatsoever about US targets.

    The reality of appeasement is much more of those things.

    Tyranny and oppression win when good men... do nothing.
    Go view statistics of the costs in lives and property in WWII because men sitting in a chair similar to GWB decided that they couldn't act to forestall Hitler's ambition. Then look at the pictures of towns leveled... and bodies ripped apart.

    Or I'll even make it easier for you, watch the invasion scene from "Saving Private Ryan" with the realization that only 3000 of the 291,000 American deaths occurred during Operation Overlord.

    Only the shortsighted don't/didn't recognize that Saddam was a threat to the US and world so long as he was in power and that his sons were even more of a threat. Even Bill Clinton recognized that the policy on Iraq for the US had to be regime change.

    GWB did what had to be done for the sake of our children or grandchildren... regardless of the hindsight judgments about the WMD intelligence mistakes.
     
  3. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    "My type" did start our own nation...perhaps you have heard of it. It's called The United States of America. It is ruled by "We the People", not by an authoritarian ruling by divine right. </font>[/QUOTE]Hardly. Your "type" would find no reason whatsoever to throw off the rule of a tyrant... or help someone else do it as the case may be.
     
  4. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    I've seen what appeasement and ignoring the rise Muslim problem got us. I've seen the aftermath of people jumping from the WTC. Like it or not this is a Holy war, and we didn't start it. </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely right. Not only do we have the testimony of pre-WWII to show us what happens when fascists like Saddam and these Islamofascist terrorists are left unchecked... we have about 30 years of progressively more brazen terrorism against us since the 70's.
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I am not sure where I stand on this issue, but

    1. Shouldn't this thread be in the Politics forum?

    2. I don't think the fact that Bush is President and wants the war is a valid reason for it

    3. I don't think the OT wars are validation of the present war -- those wars were very plainly ordered and initiated by God
     
  6. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    There were photos released during WW2---in both theatres of war--Europe & Pacific---that when viewed by the American public in mags such as LIFE and TIME and whatever else published then-----Marines dead on the beach---carnage on display during the Normandy invasion and Operation COBRA---when the tearied eyed Americans back home saw the photos----there were mass protests

    and the United States government came within a "hairs breath" of withdrawing its troopers from all theatres of operation!!!

    Mercy---if they would have---Gina would be speaking some sort of Deutch language known only in the Mutter Land!!! ;)
     
  7. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    "My type" did start our own nation...perhaps you have heard of it. It's called The United States of America. It is ruled by "We the People", not by an authoritarian ruling by divine right. </font>[/QUOTE]I seriously doubt that your type started anything but whining.

    It was our forefathers that sold their property and went bankrupt to fight a corrupt king and the tyranny he was capable of doing.

    President Bush is doing exactly as the people of America allow to help protect our nation from terrorists.

    Divine right only belongs to God and you know it.

    I suppose you would have stopped the Crucifixion too?
     
  8. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    I'm more sure. I hate the loss on all sides... but it is a necessary and legitimate act of a sovereign nation to protect its citizens from those who would do them harm while also serving to liberate people under control of that tyrant.


    You are absolutely right. Neither do I... although I don't think GWB "wants the war". I think it is his sincere conviction that fighting Islamofascism is necessary... and I tend to agree with that conviction to a large extent.

    I would tend to agree with that also. However, the sovereignty of nations exemplified by the OT and affirmed by the NT establishes the right for one nation to go to war against those who threaten them unjustly.
     
  9. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    These verses have nothing whatsoever to do with war---and not even the revenge and rumor thereof. These verses are to do with the truth that the Lord Jesus conveyed upon His disciples which tell us as BELIEVERS---when persecution comes---let it come!! When you are hated for MY NAME sake---don't resist!!

    Context, Sister! Context!
     
  10. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    Obviously, Salamander school doesn't include history. Divine Right was a doctrine that monarch's ruled because God put them in charge, much like some here think Bush was put in charge by the almighty.

    Read more in many places, but you can start here:
    http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GLOSSARY/DIVRIGHT.HTM
     
  11. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    I was wondering how this is a Baptist discussion? Perhaps this should be moved to news/current events.

    Anyway, I thought that this war was a bad move when we should have been directing all of our resources in Afghanistan. But If God did direct President Bush to do this for some end time scenario that only He knows about, who are we to question it?

    This on God's sovereign will concerning the setting up and taking down of kings, presidents, etc.

    "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that
    the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men." Dan. 4:17

    I do know that President Bush has come out and said that this was something that he was directed by God to do. It was no doubt God's will that Saddam was to be taken down. And one might note that this original decree from God's Word was directed to a former king of Iraq (Babylon).

    And Gina, I know that since this war is front and center in the news we can see first hand the dead bodies. But how many more would have been killed and raped and not seen, at least by us, by Saddam and his cohorts if he and then his sons would have been left alone to rule for the next 50 or so years? Ever think of that?
     
  12. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    These verses have nothing whatsoever to do with war---and not even the revenge and rumor thereof. These verses are to do with the truth that the Lord Jesus conveyed upon His disciples which tell us as BELIEVERS---when persecution comes---let it come!! When you are hated for MY NAME sake---don't resist!!

    Context, Sister! Context!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Isn't it a concept that should cover our whole lives though, from the smallest issues to the biggest?
    It has been claimed that this is a religious war. Aren't we being hated for our religion? Isn't that what the terrorists hate, that we don't serve their god?

    I am not arguing that, I am asking you that, ok?

    You said that you viewed photos and such, and your opinion is not swayed at all by them.
    I simply can't do that. Does it not grieve you terribly to see those?
    That's part of what made me stop and rethink what was happening, and start looking at the motivation and thought processes behind it. The attitude. Would the fruit of doing what our Father would have us do be the attitude being displayed? People are cheering, photos are all over the place, and online games having people hunt and shoot Iraqi's are online. That is very wrong.
    I consider the photos violent and disturbing. They should be considered pornographic, or at least not so easily accessible.
    Yet they are, and yet people continue to have no solemnity towards the situation. Why in the Christian community do I hear more rejoicing and cheering over the deaths of Iraqi's than I hear for peace, or even for the innocent in Iraq? It isn't even coupled with joy for the deaths and then prayers for the American families who lost loved ones. That disturbs me. People are taking joy in sorrow, and finding pleasure in the pain of those killed, maimed, and injured. I struggle to understand the concept of such events with normally opposite reactions taking place in the Christian community. Even if one believes this war is just, is this the right attitude to have?

    I posted this thread because what is happening makes my heart hurt, so forgive me if I don't defend my views. I really don't care to, and see that others are stating what I'm thinking much more intelligently and eloquently than I ever could.
    I'd like to see who else here is like-minded, and for those who aren't, read what you have to say and try to understand why you think what you do.
     
  13. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Really? That's interesting. You want to take from the rich and give to the poor by force through government. Nowhere does scripture justify such a notion.

    Not for absolute certain, but it would seem from many of your posts that you have somehow rationalized allegiance to a party/ideology that has legalized abortion as a central theme.

    Not sure how you support either of these things without "compartmentizing Jesus".

    No matter how you spin it, using gov't to take what isn't yours and give it to someone else has a name... stealing. Terminating the life of a "fetus" is a very sterile way of expressing support for the arbitrary murder of persons that someone finds inconvenient.
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, as a matter of fact I stand firmly against abortion and I am a registered Republican. I don't advocate wealth redistributiion, I do advocate for more responsible tax spending as well as less taxes. Spending what we don't have, like what we doing now is in a word shameful. In my opinion they should learn to live on a real budget like all the rest of us.

    Do you consider all taxes wealth redistribution or do you see a role for taxes in our society?
     
  14. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Scott J said:

    Of course he wanted this war. According to former Bush administration officials and friends, he hankered to take out Saddam by force long before 9/11. He probably didn't want the war to turn out this way, though.


    Then why isn't Bush taking on the primary Islamofacsists, such as the Saudis?
     
  15. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    I knew from the moment I read your comment Gina, that you would get railed on for that, yet I see where you are comming from, and I think that it is a perfectly reasonable discussion to have raised and discussed in the Baptist Discussion Forum.

    I am happy to put forward my thoughts on the matter, and if posters wish to comment you are more than welcome! [​IMG]

    I supported the Australian forces going into Afghanistan assisting the other groups there to overthrow the Taliban who sheltered and supported Bin Laden, and who as a result have a share in what he did on Sep 11.

    I supported the deposing of Saddam Hussain and was pleased that he was taken alive so that the Kurds can get justice for the many heinous things that he did to them. I confess Christ as my saviour and I dont rejoice in the death of people, but when I saw Uday Hussein killed, my thoughts were that for a number of Iraqi and other people, justice was done at that moment.

    I dont think that President Bush nor Prime Minister Howard thought that the Iraq war would descend into the current Shiite - Sunni civil war that is taking place, being fueled on by people entering the nation from other nations to take a side and fight one another. Those bombs that are exploding and those horrible pictures that we are seeing are often, the result of one muslim group targeting another.

    My belief is that the United Nations actually shares alot of the blame for this.

    Look at the justice that is being melted out to Saddam at present, he was a heinous murdering dicatator, and the U.N knew it happened and did absolutley nothing except to hamper the efforts of anyone else that tried to speak up. In just the same way as Europe attempted to appease Hitler as Germany rose from the ashen.

    The U.N has sat back and let these conflicts between muslims grow and grow with no resolutions. As a result it has spilled over into Iraq.

    The war in Iraq is over and has been for a while, the western forces that are there are largely trying to protect the population, and to train their own forces to deal with the terrorist threats that are being carried out in their nation daily.

    Meanwhile Bin Laden is still out there somewhere, assuming that he is still alive.

    The best thing that we can do is to put every resource into training soldiers in Iraq to take control of their nation. Then we must deal with Iran which will be another conflict, yet considering how many terrorists are entering Iraq from Iran, maybe it could also slow that down?

    The other thing that we should be doing is rejecting Iranian and their supporters oil. Lets quit financing people that hate us, and grow our own petrol on our own farms!
     
  16. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    The environmental wackos in this country will never allow anyone to get the oil WE HAVE HERE out of the ground for fear it will "damage mother earth".We can't have that now,can we?Instead....at the hands of these wacko's and the major oil companies we are being held hostage to foreign oil.It's ultimately all about the sin known as the "love of money"....greed.The Bible just always has a way of pinpointing the cause AND the motive for everything....doesn't it?

    Greg Sr.
     
  17. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    It seems that we all need a little reminder of history. Remember, in 1991 when Saddam signed a treaty to bring about the end of the Gulf War hostilities? That treaty contained numerous things that Iraq had to do or military force would again be brought to bear upon them. Iraq had to immediately disarm, destroy all WMDs, provide full and open disclosure showing that it had complied with the above, and submit to full and open UN inspections to ensure that it was not producing WMDs, etc. There was much more but these points will suffice for the sake of this discussion.

    Then a period of 8 to 9 years passed by during which time Iraq refused to honor the above mentioned terms. Now, President George W. Bush determined that Iraq had been allowed to slide on its commitments long enough. He went to the UN numerous times seeking to have pressure applied to Iraq to bring them into compliance with the 1991 agreement. After numerous UN resolutions against Iraq, the final one of which delivered an ultimatum calling on Iraq to fully comply or face military force, President Bush saw that the UN did not have the backbone or will to go through with the requirements of its own resolution against Iraq. At that point President Bush asked the US Congress to approve his use of our military forces to bring Iraq into compliance with the 1991 agreements. Thus, we invaded Iraq. As such what we are involved in is not two Gulf Wars; rather, it is one Gulf War that began in 1991 with an eight to nine year gap in the middle.

    The failure of Iraq to fully comply with the 1991 Gulf War agreements is the foundation and ultimate just cause for our being involved in a war in Iraq today. However, since that time the President has shifted gears on his line of argumentation and focused his debate on WMDs and regime change etc. I think he has handled this portion of the national debate poorly. He should never have departed from the strong and just cause for returning to war based upon Iraq's refusal and failure to fully comply with the 1991 Gulf War agreements.

    [ May 23, 2006, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  18. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    If these are your beliefs then thank you for being more patient and gracious than I deserved and please accept my apology for making false assumptions. I agree with everything you said here... except I hold my nose and vote for the lesser of evils with the Republicans.... mostly because of their failure on the issues you mentioned.

    Yes. There is definitely a role for taxes and government action. I would list among them: defense, general (as in 'whole') welfare (ie environmental protection, food inspection, disease control, etc), justice, interstate commerce, foreign affairs, etc.

    I would not include those things that relate to particular outcomes for specific individuals or groups based on some subjective sense of fairness.
     
  19. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Amen a million times over.

    For purely those concerned with nationalism... I can think of few things that would favor the US and its allies like Australia than going to agriculturally produced fuels. Yes there are technical problems to be resolved but they are more environmentally sustainable and they do belong to us.

    For those concerned about costs, there are millions of acres of farm land in the Midwest in USDA funded conservation programs. The purpose is to keep it available for production but out of production to keep grain prices up so farmers can stay in business. If we increase ethanol use, this land is available to make up the difference in production.

    Right now, one of the biggest ethanol hold backs is distribution. Pipelines haven't been built yet to move it. Costs are driven up due to truch and rail transportation.
     
  20. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Oh my goodness, there is a God! I agree with Ben W!Well, almost.

    I would think it very naive for our leaders to not expect a civil war between muslim factions.

    One of two things will happen in that region: either the muslims will annihilate themselves or they will get so sick of fighting they will step back and say, "Hey! Look at this democracy thing and let's give it a chance!"

    Until then, Ishmael will always be a warring tribe of rebels and hatemongers, and even after they do say, "Peace and safety" judgement will come and prophecy will be fulfilled.
     
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