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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Gina B, Apr 13, 2006.

  1. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Sorry, French-wah!! My "Be-Safe-On-Line" AFA Internet filter service--"trumped" your link and filtered it out of my system!!

    I still like reading WW2 history---those American GI's----the only body armor they had was hunkerin' down on one side or the other of one of those Sherman tanks!!!
    </font>[/QUOTE]It may be all the smiling Iraqi's is just too much for the liberals to handle? [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  2. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    Yep that's what these liberal COLLEGES and left wing media will do to ya. change a good christians values and morals :(
     
  3. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    This does not describe our rulers.
    Think think think.

    Call abortion good.
    Call homosexuality good.
    Call false religions good.
    Do not acknowledge God.

    This is not a terror to evil works. Therefore, I cannot accept that this verse applies to our government.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Did you know that his verse was written in a time when rulers like Nero ruled the Roman empire? (Paul's letter to the church at Rome)

    How would you compare our government to that government as far as being good?

    Think!

    So your point does not stand Scripturally.
     
  4. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    rsr wrote:
    What planet are you from? We have a representative government here in the US. We elect them and they sovereignly make decisions by their own vote.

    When did you ever get a vote on either the senate floor or in the House of Representatives, not to mention the Executive branch of government.

    When they vote on going to war they never put it to referendum. They are the final say in government decisions while they are in office.
     
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    This does not describe our rulers.
    Think think think.

    Call abortion good.
    Call homosexuality good.
    Call false religions good.
    Do not acknowledge God.

    This is not a terror to evil works. Therefore, I cannot accept that this verse applies to our government.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Did you know that his verse was written in a time when rulers like Nero ruled the Roman empire? (Paul's letter to the church at Rome)

    How would you compare our government to that government as far as being good?

    Think!

    So your point does not stand Scripturally.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Excellent point, jackrus!
     
  6. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Jack, it is a very poor argument to say that scripture doesn't count when the corruption and sin is not as bad as that of an even more evil government.

    No, I wouldn't call an evil government good just because I can point to one that was more offensive than it.

    Why would I do that?

    If I smell a small nasty pile of manure, then smell an even bigger nasty pile of manure, does that make the first nasty smell pleasant? LOLOL
    (the answer is no)
     
  7. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    If the USA offends you so much, Gina L---why don't you just pack up and go to some other country----where they settle their differences between themselves with machine guns

    Thats what I don't understand!! Folks get off on a rant---just like those Hebrews wanting to go back to Egypt---why don't the bunch of everybody who don't like it---just ship your hind ends back to King George!!! They'll receive you with welcome arms at Heathrow and Gatewik and give you a good "Cheerio!" and welcome you home!!
     
  8. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    I sense that free speech in action offends you.

    Which countries are you looking into for your new residence?

    I personally don't plan on moving, especially not to one where differences are settled between people by shooting each other. Sounds a lot like a place that believes in war. OOPS
    I have every reason to be loyal to Israel and to America. That is my heritage. My family came to this country for a reason. You may sit there and make comments about me that you have to edit, or tell me I should leave, but I tell you that it's the people who are willing to stand up when we are wrong that make this country as great as it is.
    Blind patriotism got us the holocaust. Snort and stomp all you want, but this country has it's corruption and it has faults.
    A truly loyal and patriotic citizen understands this and tries to change it and preserve what made the country great in the first place. It doesn't follow it blindly into it's own destruction.

    As a pastor, your job is to lead your people toward the most Christ-like solutions to problems. This does not include slamming someone for using their freedom of speech, telling someone horrified by war to leave the country, or to condone and praise a government that is corrupted.

    As a pastor, you have an even stronger obligation than most Christians to uphold the truth and to be an example not just to those in your own church building, but anytime you act or speak.

    You are failing in that capacity. This is not the way I should expect to be spoken to or treated by a pastor, and I object and am calling you out on it, since it's apparent that nobody else is about to do it.
     
  9. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Blackbird,
    I would be really interested in knowing what branch of the armed forces you served in and if you saw any action?
     
  10. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    I'm sorry but i have to agree! it is the same thing i say (in so many words) to another group of people who complain about coming to this country against their will. but yet they are better off here than anywhere else in the world and have come so far. stop playing the victim, make the best of it OR LEAVE!

    My husband serve in the vietnam war and is a wounded vet. you wouldn't know it physically or mentally [​IMG] thank the Lord. he was saved a year after he got back. [​IMG]
     
  11. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    Gina wrote...
    Problem is YOU think it is wrong, where most do not. this isn't a, the BIBLE says this is wrong issue if anything God is for war has been since the begining of time. Gina Why do you find it nesessary to fight issues that are gray areas? it's like you are taking what you are learning in college and bringing it here. God's word say were are to obey our leaders whether we think they are right or wrong. i didn't agree with Clinton but i didn't go on boards and bad mouthing him either. it is God he rises up who he wants and it is God that also tears down who he wants. right now he has TORN down Sadaam Hussan (reminds me of King Nebakanezer) and hopefully next will be Osama Ben Laden
    :mad:
     
  12. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    First, truth is not a matter of public opinion.

    Secondly, according to the latest polls, a very large majority of the American people DO believe this war is wrong.
     
  13. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    My point was that Paul gave that command even when the much more evil Roman government was at rule over the people. If it applied to them at that time in history under a much more evil rule, why not us today?

    How much more then is the Scripture to apply to us since God has blessed us to live in the best counrty under the best government in the history of mankind, with a Christian president to boot?
     
  14. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    I do not believe in LIBERAL polls. they choose what area they take their polls. depending where you take the polls and HOW you word them you can manipulate the results. ;)
     
  15. Frenchy

    Frenchy New Member

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    Jack wrote
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I knew exactly what you meant and your right. [​IMG]
     
  16. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    A planet where, thank God, I am not obligated to agree with everything the government does and am free to argue and vote against it.

    The politicians who represent us are not in any way, shape or form sovereign. They are the servants of the people and are subject to be criticized and second guessed.

    As Thomas Jefferson said, "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; ... "

    Just because they're elected doesn't give them immunity from criticism. They are temporary tribunes of the people who serve at the pleasure of the people.

    It is our duty, if we believe they are wrong, to convince them to do their duty or else remove them from office through democratic means.
     
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Yea, but how many $500 dollar toliet seats have they bought before you can vote them out? [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Hello Gina,

    I think what you are experiencing is the tension between the ideas of Christian Pacifism and Christian Just War Theory. The following material comes from my notes in Dr. Mark Liederbach’s Christian Ethics class (and is used by permission). Let’s look at what the Bible has to say about the ideas of strict Christian Pacifism and Christian Just War Theory.

    Christian pacifists generally hold tightly to the English translation (such as in the KJV) “Thou shalt not kill” (Ex. 20:13, KJV). However, the Hebrew language in that text and other OT passages does not bear out a strict interpretation meaning “no killing” (consider Deut. 7:1-6). Thus, the passage in Ex. 20:13 is better understood and more rightly translated as “You shall not murder” as in the NASB.

    Second, Christian pacifists appeal to Jesus’ example of non-violent resistance. However, Jesus’ specific teachings on the subject indicate elements of both sides (pacifism and Just War).

    a. Matt. 5:9—blessed are the peacemakers
    b. Matt. 5:21-22a—anger and murder
    c. Matt. 5:38-39—turn the other cheek
    d. Matt. 10:34—“I did not come to bring peace… but the sword.”
    e. Matt. 26:50-56—He had the ability to wage war, but did not resort to war.

    Clearly Jesus’ teaching has a very pacifistic streak. However, we must consider the whole counsel of God’s Word on the subject. Consider, Rom. 13:1-7 where we understand that the state is given responsibility to “bear the sword.” This passage is generally understood to mean that God has granted the state the authority to bear the sword for the purpose of capital punishment and to make war (under certain specific circumstances). Finally, we must not forget about the rest of the story found in Rev. 19. Here we clearly see that Jesus wages war.

    The problem with a strict Christian pacifist prohibition against all killing and war is that it conflicts with the fact that God commanded war (the Israelite conquest of the Promised Land and that Jesus will return as a Warrior King and wage war). Thus, a strict Christian pacifist position which claims that all war is simply wrong actually impugns God because He commanded war. The Scriptures depict three types of warfare commanded by God.

    a. Unlimited Holy War (Josh. 6:21-24, 8:24-25, 10:2-40, 11:11-23)
    b. Limited Warfare (Deut. 20:19-20)
    c. Zealous Rebellion (Judges 6:11-7:25, 13:1-16:31)

    Clearly Christians must avoid the Crusader mentality. Problems and characteristics of Crusades:

    a. Crusades treat war as an unconditional effort of good vs. evil—no gray areas
    b. Crusades treat war as a matter of religion
    c. Crusades have little or no place for moral restraint in actions taken against enemies
    d. Because good cannot compromise with evil, and because it requires “total war,” crusade has little or no place for surrender of any kind
    e. Wars of crusade are fought for the purpose of imposing, achieving, or expanding ideals usually conceived on an universal or cosmological scale
    f. Crusades oppose the whole social order and value system of an enemy, not just a few leading individuals, or a few narrow interests. In a war of crusade, no one can be exempted
    g. In crusade, soldiers participate with zeal (i.e. suicide bombers & 9/11 terrorists, etc)
    h. Crusades require no declaration of war. Anyone with zeal for righteousness, anyone who loves God, anyone willing to give their all for the “true ideal” may strike a blow for good against evil without waiting for approval from some human authority.
    i. Crusade tends to extend the state of war into a permanent condition

    So we see that we cannot be outright Christian pacifists and we cannot be Christian Crusaders either. So what option is left? We must look to the idea of Christian Just War Criteria, which includes both jus ad bellum (Latin meaning Law to War) and jus in bello (Latin meaning Justice in War).

    Just War Criteria—Jus ad Bellum (Justify Going to War)
    A. The criteria or requirements ensuring that the reasons for going to war is (are) just:
    1. Must have right or legitimate authority—for Christians, in addition to civil authority, we must ask if the Scriptures bear out what we are about to do?
    2. Just Cause
    3. Right Intention—Trying to ultimately restore peace
    4. Last Resort
    5. Proportionality—Do only what is necessary to obtain the stated goals or ends
    6. Reasonable Chance of Success
    a. Counting the cost before building a tower (Luke 14:31). However, are there times when you are just willing to die for what is right?
    7. Minimizing Negative Effects—Help rebuild when war is over

    B. Moral Traces:
    1. For Just Warriors—Even though I must go to war, I do not want or seek to do so.
    2. For Pacifists—Sanctity of Human Life, Jesus’ turn the other cheek and peacemaker teachings etc.

    C. Why Pacifists and Just Warriors need each other:
    1. Both start from a presumption against violence and killing
    2. Just Warriors need Pacifists to keep them in check—preventing them from becoming unlimited warriors or developing the Crusader mentality
    3. Pacifists need Just Warriors to protect them and their right to be pacifists

    Just War Criteria: Jus in Bello (Just behavior in War)
    A. Legitimate Authority—Same as in jus ad bellum above

    B. Discrimination—Asks the questions, Who may be attacked, how may they be attacked, and when may they be attacked?

    1. Who: Non-combatant Immunity
    a. Prohibition on the direct and intentional killing of non-combatants (Micah 6:8)
    b. Who is to count as a non-combatant?
    c. 4 Classifications and their status
    i. Combatants—uniformed (armed) soldiers
    ii. Non-combatants—civilians (unarmed)
    iii. Ex-combatants—POW, sick or wounded soldiers, medics, Chaplains
    iv. Unprivileged belligerents—Spies, saboteurs, command and control structures etc.
    2. How and When: Rules of Engagement, Double Effect, and Perfidy
    a. Rules of Engagement—Moral principles that bind conduct in war
    b. Collateral Damage and the “Rule of Double Effect”—The attempt to deal with situations in which an agent foresees, but does not intend, an evil effect that will result from pursuing a good effect
    i. The act must itself be either good or indifferent, or at least not forbidden with a view to preventing just the particular effect
    ii. The evil effect cannot be a means to the good, but must be equally immediate or at least must result from the good effect
    iii. The foreseen evil effect must not be intended or approved, merely permitted—for even a good act is vitiated if accompanied by an evil attempt
    iv. There must be a proportionately serious reason for exercising the cause and allowing the evil effect.
    c. Perfidy (treachery)—Dealing forthrightly with the enemy. A code of conduct. Raises the question: “On what basis should one try to limit treachery such as signing a treaty and then blowing it off when the other side disarms?”

    C. Proportionality
    1. The probable benefits of any particular course of action within war must outweigh the probable costs.

    [ May 23, 2006, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]
     
  19. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Or maybe like Judah under Amon which thought David had a bit better idea than the current king?
     
  20. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Definition of Liberal Poll: One that disagrees with me.

    The Republicans have scads of well-paid pollsters; if they had results significantly different than "liberal" pollsters, they would be trumpeting them.
     
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