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Olde English Bibles

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Phillip, Dec 8, 2004.

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  1. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Does anybody really know what the FIRST English translation was? I realize the English may have been practically unreadable, but I would like to know when and where?

    I do not have a background knowledge of the English language and its evolvement, some discussion on this might help.

    Finally, are there copies of some of the later English Bibles available for free consumption, much like the Geneva is available on e-Sword? Or maybe just text files.

    I have searched sites like Gutenberg, but they tend to stick with more secular books. CCEL is pretty good, but it has more church-father literature than it does old Bible translations.

    I would like to try to fit the pre-English world together with the early English world. I realize that a lot of this history may be lost, but surely there are sources.

    History scholars, wanna help me here? [​IMG]
     
    #1 Phillip, Dec 8, 2004
  2. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    No history scholar on this end, but here are some tidbits:

    Caedmon, OE loose paraphrase of biblical stories, circa 700.

    The Venerable Bede, Gospel of John, into Anglo-Saxon, circa 735. (No known copy exists.)

    Vespasian Psalter, interlinear translation of the Psalms into Old English, 9th century.

    Northumbrian Gloss on the Gospels, circa 950.

    West-Saxon Gospels, late 10th century. (Seven known manuscripts.)

    The first full translation (from the Latin Vulgate) was Wycliff's,

    "Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum, Si þin nama gehalgod. to becume þin rice, gewurþe ðin willa, on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg, and forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum. and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfele. soþlice."

    — The Lord's Prayer in West Saxon

    COMPARISON OF OLD, MIDDLE and EARLY MODERN ENGLISH

    Wycliffe's Bible, late 14th century, was the first translation of the entire Bible (and Apocrypha) into English and was made from the Latin Vulgate.

    WYCLIFFE BIBLE ONLINE

    Tyndale's original NT was the first translated from the Greek.
    TYNDALE NT

    Matthew's Bible, 1537, is the first complete English Bible to be translated entirely from the Hebrew and Greek. (Or so I've been told.)

    The Geneva Bible, 1599 version is available online at http://www.genevabible.org/Geneva.html
     
    #2 rsr, Dec 8, 2004
  3. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Thank you so much for the links. I do appreciate it.
     
    #3 Phillip, Dec 9, 2004
  4. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    KVJ vs Geneva,

    Some scholars have made the observation that King James decreed the KJV be translated because he took some of the Geneva translation as a personal affront to his sovereignty.

    Anybody have more on this?

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #4 Bro. James, Dec 9, 2004
  5. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    The Geneva's marginal notes contradicted James' belief in the divine right of kings.

    "Exodus 1:19: And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women [are] not as the Egyptian women; for they [are] lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

    Note: Their disobedience in this was lawful, but their deception is evil."

    "2nd Chronicles 15:16: And also [concerning] Maachah the mother of Asa the king, he removed her from [being] queen, because she had made an idol in a grove: and Asa cut down her idol, and stamped [it], and burnt [it] at the brook Kidron.

    Note: Or grandmother, and in this he showed that he lacked zeal, for she should have died both by the covenant, as 2Ch 15:13 and by the law of God, but he gave place to foolish pity and would also seem after a sort to satisfy the law."

    The latter note condones regicide (Is it any wonder that Cromwell, who executed James' son, used the Geneva?) and also brings up James' connivance at the execution of his mother at the hands of Elizabeth, which secured the throne of England for him.
     
    #5 rsr, Dec 9, 2004
  6. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    #6 rsr, Dec 9, 2004
  7. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    To RSR:

    Thanks. I have found that site. This is more interesting than studying the family of Julius Caesar.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #7 Bro. James, Dec 9, 2004
  8. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Alister McGrath observed: "The ultimate grounds for James's hostility toward the Geneva Bible was the challege its marginal notes posed to his passionate belief in the doctrine of the 'divine right of kings'" (IN THE BEGINNING, p. 141). McGrath observed that "the Geneva notes regularly use the word 'tyrant' to refer to kings; the King James Bible never uses this word" (p. 143).

    At Daniel 6:22, the 1599 edition of the Geneva
    Bible has this marginal note: "For he did disobey the king's wicked commandment to obey God, and so did no injury to the king, who ought to command nothing whereby God should be dishonoured."

    It may have been more than just the marginal
    notes that King James disliked about the Geneva
    Bible. The Geneva Bible also used the word "tyrant" in the text to refer to kings and others that abused their authority. At Isaiah 13:11b, the 1599 Geneva Bible stated: "I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease and will cast down the pride of tyrants."

    At Job 6:23, the Geneva Bible stated: "And deliver me from the enemies' hand, or ransom me out of the hand of tyrants."

    At Job 3:17, it has: "The wicked have there ceased from their tyranny"
     
    #8 Logos1560, Dec 9, 2004
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    The notes of the official AV1611 are quite valuable, too. They show the variety of possible words they might be used - with translators recognizing their selection of one over another was just their choice, not a new inspiration.

    I would recommend anyone interested in Olde English bibles to start with a reprint of the AV1611. Worthwhile investment.
     
    #9 Dr. Bob, Dec 9, 2004
  10. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    I can highly recommend the one I bought from Hendrickson. It is as easy as any Bible to use and using modern fonts, too.

    It is a very good Bible for the KJVonly because it is the REAL-DEAL, apocrypha and all! :D [​IMG]
     
    #10 Phillip, Dec 9, 2004
  11. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    #11 rsr, Dec 30, 2004
  12. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Sir Frederic G. Kenyon wrote in the Dictionary of the Bible edited by James Hastings, and published by Charles Scribner's Sons of New York in 1909:

    [​IMG]
     
    #12 Craigbythesea, Dec 31, 2004
  13. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Yes, that's one of my sources.

    What is your point?
     
    #13 rsr, Dec 31, 2004
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    #14 robycop3, Dec 31, 2004
  15. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Thanks, Robycop3, that is an interesting link. I have started making a notebook with hard-to-find facts concerning the English translation of the Bible. This will definitely be part of it.
    Thanks. . . [​IMG]
     
    #15 Phillip, Dec 31, 2004
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    One thing to note, Phillip...NO TWO of these various English translations is like any other. Since God has preserved His word UNTO ALL GENERATIONS, these different translations caused the KJVO myth to be stillborn, but its advocates have been looking for something to bring it to life ever since.
     
    #16 robycop3, Jan 3, 2005
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