Featured Omniscience and Determinism

Think that you really err when you see Predestinating exactly see as dtermining all things, for God does BOTH, He determines what passes, decreeing them, while also allowing for some things to be done...

 

This view misrepresents my view. (1)

I agree with Calvinism's position that if God knows with certainty, what we will choose to do in the future, then that future is fixed, predestined and unalterable. You agree that God does not predestine all things, but rather causes or allows all things. Your embrace of these two views is irrational, both cannot be true.

As far as the orthodox historic view of Omniscience, the only position allowed to be advocated on this forum is "total omniscience." The claim is that this view is the historic view. No other view can be presented because those views have been ruled unorthodox and belong on another forum.

I think I have mentioned this before but lets consider the time traveling crystal ball. God can look into it and see the future from the past. Therefore He knows what we freely chose to choose. If you believe this is the orthodox Baptist view, then we disagree. You might want to look up what the Bible says about the black arts, such as divination and sorcery.

 

Ive gone through this exercise before. Please note the following scripture where it pertains to Predestination.

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Ephesians 1:11-12 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

So "Predestination" tells us that His people will be conformed to the image of His son. So that should be the full extent of it. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestined all whom He foreknew. So for the last time, God did NOT predestine everything we do, certainly NOT the sins that we commit.

 

yes, for God actively predestined for salvation thosew whom he electe dout to be found in christ, but also chose to bypass all others, allowing them to remain as they were!

 

Yes- logically.

You obviously don't know what logic is.

Yes, you have and anyone who is not trying to court you for support who has one undergrad semester class on logic would tell you the same.

except that in your example... they're not.

How does the "Come now let us reason" passage together have ANYTHING at all to do with supporting your point?

Logic is truth.

Man can be mistaken on what he thinks is logical but logic is infallible.

The Trinity does not violate logic at all.

If you think it does, I challenge you to show what law of logic it violates.

 

I'm well aware of what it is...I'm accused on here a lot of using it in refuting TULIP.

yet oddly they haven't. Hmmm...

logic is quite simply the scientific method used in reasoning. The fact you ask what the Lord appealing to man to reason makes me think maybe you are not in tune with what logic actually is. The finite cannot reason with God in His understanding, He reasons with us on ours.

logic is merely a tool used in discerning right from wrong. Tools are never infallible.

of course not from Gods vantage point. From ours, sure it does. That's why it must be accepted by faith and not sound logic. If all eternal truths could be accepted by logic, that would lead to a works based salvation as faith is rendered moot.

propositional or first order?

 

Have you asked anyone (who would not try to court you for support in these debates) who has even one class on even an undergrad level on logic?

I bet you haven't.

You don't understand logic.

There is no deeper truth in the heavens that contradicts the truth revealed on earth- for example, something cannot be one thing and NOT be that thing at the same time not in a "deeper knowledge" scenario or in common knowledge.

Logic, like holiness and power, emanates from God.

To say it is fallible is like saying God's knowledge is fallible (which is becoming more palatable to some on here).

It must be accepted by faith that God IS Trinity but not because God being Trinity contradicts logic.

It does not.

And I challenged you to demonstrate which law of logic the Trinity contradicts and I have not seen you do that yet.

 

A question about what you said CANNOT put words in your mouth, Skandelon.

I asked an extremely simple question.

Is it your contention that there is never any anthropomorphism anywhere in any didactic teaching in Scripture?

Yes or no.

Very, very simple.

A TOTALLY different completely unrelated issue.

Anthropomorphism and cultural context are two completely different things.

Saying that homosexuals use anthropomorphism to excuse their sins is ridiculous.

They use cultural context.

If any of them ever did use anthropomorphism it would be silly in the highest degree.

Please stay on topic.

God says he does not remember things, too.

Do you affirm that God has a memory filled with holes?

What you do, Skandelon is what you accuse me of, except you do it on steroids.

You choose what is anthropomorphic to suit you rather than INTERPRETING Scripture in light of Scripture- you want to take proof texts that suit you and let them only say what you want them to appear to say on the surface without having to do any comparing Scripture with Scripture whatsoever- without having to do any systematizing of theological truth.

Now, if it is a passage that clearly implies on the surface that God has determined all things beforehand, then you go CRAZY with exegesis saying "GOD DID NOT MEAN THAT!!!"

I could say, "God said 'I create darkness and evil'"

Skandelon says, "God did not do what he said he did"

I'll go with God.

But that kind of childish behavior does not appeal to me.

I believe in exegesis across the board- not just when it suits me.

Childish.

 

I'm not understanding how this is at all relevant. If someone matching your criteria wants to chime in, feel free.

No, you don't. Does this accomplish anything?

I don't disagree, but the hinge is the bolded. We don't, and may never have access to all truths in heaven. From OUR vantage things may appear logical. You are talking past me without nearing me.

Agreed, and He has limited this tool from our end. This is why He requires faith. If we could rest on logic for everything, who needs God?

no, it is to understand what it is...a tool He has created to understand truth. Only God is infallible, nothing He has created is.

we are going in circles now. From OUR perspective it does.

I asked you to clarify.

 

These three statements separated by ellipses contradict each other.

No it does not.

I think that you may be thinking the Trinity from our persepctive violates the law of noncontradiction.

Something can't be one and three at the same time.

But that is to misunderstand the nature of the Trinity.

The Trinity is not one person and three persons at the same time.

The Trinity is not one God and three God's at the same time.

If it were the Trinity would be illogical.

What makes it perfectly logical is that it is one in a different type than it is three.

It is 1 God. 3 persons.



This does not in any way violate the law of noncontradiction

 

Even if that were TRUE it still could not be putting words in your mouth, Skan.

The question put to you is, "Is it your contention that anthropomorphism is only used in apocalyptic or poetic literature?"

Exactly.

No more than saying God forgets is anthropomorphic, Skan.

Anthropomorphism is simple to identify.

Whenever God describes himself as doing something humans do which contradicts what other Scripture teach about his nature and being; in other words he could not be only in one place because that would contradict his omniscience, and he could not REALLY forget because that would contradict his omniscience, etc... it is clearly anthropomorphic.

God does not ponder in the sense of trying to figure out what he is going to do- this contradicts his omniscience. So it is clearly anthropomorphic.

It indicates that what God is doing is most able to be related to us by our sense of pondering. God is not REALLY pondering because he has always known all there is to ever know about everything but what he is doing is most like what we go through when we ponder.

Jesus is not REALLY sitting at the Father's ACTUAL right hand, because the Father has no hands. But the way it so happens in heaven is most like in our world when one sits at the right hand of a mighty ruler.

What we are NOT- for PITY'S SAKE!- supposed to do is take those verses and teach that God must have a physical body!! We are not to say, "BY JOHN I BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!!! If you think the Father does not have hands with blood and muscle and bone and skin over the top of them and finger nails- then you just don't believe GOD!! I choose to believe GOD! You can believe in your fancy theoologeekuhl terms if you want! But I believe the BIBLE!!"

And, honestly, I don't see how what you are doing here is any different from that.

 

You need to demonstrate how I have done that.

I did. I posited the text that declares that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father.

That is didactic AND anthropomorphic.

I did not say it was only a man-like quality. I said that God DOES NOT forget though the text says he forgets.

The point is that you are just as likely in that text to say, "BY JOHN I BELIEVE THE BIBLE Luke does not!"

When the truth is that if you believed God literally forgets you actually do NOT believe the Bible by saying that you believe that text is literal.

This stuff you keep doing with "God says... " but "Luke says...." is silly because it pretends that we are supposed to take the literal meaning on all texts when many of them are not WRITTEN to be taken literally. That is true not only of apocalyptic literature and poetic literature but also of didactic teaching as well.

God has purposes and then he creates things to fulfill those purposes. Your order is wrong.

So what is your point with this statement?

Is it to posit that God has always had a body?

 

Here is a logic question with several logical scriptures.

Did God, by determination, take the woman out of the man, made in the image of God for an anthropomorphic purpose?

YLT Matt 1:20 And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,

YLT Luke 1:32 he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father,

Logic?

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Matt. 22:41-45

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:31-36

Logic? Anthropomorphic? Determinism?