Once Saved Always Saved - Biblical??

Here is your problem, you refuse to view the scriptures without your presuppositions. Your wordy post does nothing but deny the scriptures, the very words of Christ even, in view of you presuppositions. Apostasy is a real and dangerous possibility for the believer who does not abide in Chirst. Please explain these away starting with the first.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold , 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:10-13 NIV

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6 NIV

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Romans 11:19-22 NIV

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Hebrews 10:26-27 NIV

 

There are two sections of Hebrews people like to use to claim that we can lose our salvation. Both of them are followed by a clarification regarding salvation, and these must be ignored in order to conclude the prior verses refer to losing your salvation. The verses that follow your quote above are (emphasis mine):

The author gives warnings and then follows it up with, "but we aren't of those to whom these warnings apply, but we're of those who believe and are saved". That tells you that he's talking about the unsaved in the prior verses, otherwise there would be no verse that points out the contrast.

Similarly, people quote this section:

But fail to quote the contrast that follows (emphasis mine):

Once again, the author contrasts (the evidence of) salvation with the warnings, thus indicating that in his warnings he was not talking about those who are saved.

 

Jesus taught eternal life , not conditional life. Paul spoke of eternity with God, not a maybe with God. John spoke of those whose names were in the Lamb's Book of Life, not those who were erased from it.

The Bible speaks of eternal life, "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." It does not say anything else.

I have no need to defend what is plainly taught. On the other hand, to teach that salvation is dependent on man is to teach that salvation is attained by works (if lost by works, the same must keep it). Which needs to be defended?

My Bible teaches me, through the ministrations of the Holy Spirit, that once a man accepts the finished work of Jesus Christ, believes in his heart that Jesus took the penalty for his sins, died on the cross, and rose on the third day, and confesses that Jesus is the Christ and his Savior, that man is saved. I do not see any other.

At one time I thought that a man could lose his salvation, because of verses like the ones quoted above. It was only through much study and prayer that I realized that these verses were written for various reasons, to different people, at diferent times, in different places, by different authors. By researching the who, what, when, where, and why of the texts I found that I was concerned about nothing.

I enjoy debating theology and doctrine, but I will not concede to anything that would make God out to be as petty as mortal man, or too weak to keep that which belongs to Him.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Good posts Trotter. Some just cannot face the fact that we don't deserve to be saved and do not deserve to stay that way. They cannot grasp the fact that it is God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ that does the keeping.
The confusion here is mistaking those who were never saved and fall away with Christians who can(and do!) stumble and fall. A classic example is found in John, where we read that some believed in Him, but a little later were taking up stones to throw at Him! Did they have saving faith? No, they had the faith that devils have. Let me, if I may paraphrase Paul to fit the "insecure" position:
"I'm not sure in whom I have believed and He is not able to keep that which I have commited onto Him against that day."
That simply cannot be. Do we trust Christ, or the arm of the flesh?

 

Your own choice of scriptures condemns you argument. Look at the warnings the author of Hebrews gives in this passage to his audience of believers. Who ever heard of a epistle of the Bible being written to unbelievers?

1. "For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:"

2. "Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

Finally in this passage he does not say you (the church he is writing to) are not of those who...,but we (the ones sending this letter)are not of those who...

Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. Hebrews 6:9-12 NIV

While we are putting in what those leave out to make their case, let's put in a little more context. Here, in the following verses the author of Hebrews shows that, yes at that moment his is confident of better things. He also shows that salvation is not a done deal the moment you say the sinner's prayer. The author of Hebrews exhorts them to "show this same diligence to the very end." Why does he say this? "In order to make your hope sure."

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

If salvation is by grace, then does not God also keep us in His grace? It has always amazed me that people would say that salvation is by God's grace and not by works, but then in the next breath claim we can lose that salvation through works. That doesn't add up. If it is by grace at the beginning it must be kept in grace until the end.

 

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6 NIV

"Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:11-13 NKJV

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Romans 11:19-22 NIV

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5 NKJV

I don't believe you got that quite right. If you endure you will be saved, if not your name is blotted out of the Book of Life.

You won't see anything else. It is uncomfortable theology, not because it questions the power of God, but because that person you know and love who has fallen in sin and disobedience could be headed to Hell. We who set ourselves up as teachers will be held accountable for our teaching. I would rather ere on the side of over warning someone than have that person's blood on my hands who went to hell because I refused to see the truth.

I thought the word of God was; "God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17 NIV I thought we could take God's word as it stands. I guess if we start filtering it through cultural contexts we can make it say just about anything we want.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

First off, Hebrews was written to three different audiences. The first was Jewish believers, the second was to those Jews who knew the truth but had not made a decision, and the third was to those who did not believe period.

No one who has ever heard of the Bible can read it without presupposition.

When Jesus spoke of remaining or abiding in Him in John 15, those who abode were the ones who believed, correct? Then who were the ones who didn't? Look to the parable of the sower for your answer: the first three groups mentioned were all unbelievers, but the fourth group accepted and believed.

It is funny that Rev. 3:5 was cited (the letters of Revelation are a special study topic of mine).
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Why would anyone's name be blotted out? Moses offers our answer: Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Why would Jesus confess our name before God and His angels? Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Romans 11:19-22 was addressed to Gentiles that were boasting of their being grafted into the family of God because the Jews had rejected Jesus. This likens to Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. By their boasting, the Gentiles were guilty of sinning against the Jews and God. Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Matthew 224 is speaking of the Tribulation.

As I said before, it is rather easy to pick and choose verses out of context to say whatever you want them to. Cults do it every day. By trying to force salvation into something easier to grasp, you twist it into something less than what it is...a free gift that cost God everything. I have to agree with PastorSBC1303:

Salvation is the work of God, man is the recipient. By trying to twist it around, it becomes: Man accepts salvation from God, and then it up to man to try to keep it. I do not agree.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Yes, all Scripture is divinely inspired, and was given without error. Yes, we can take God's word as it stands, and I do. The only filtering that is to be done is with our own ideas and preconceived notions.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

It’s important to understand the historical context for some passages so we can avoid the error of making it say what we want to say.


I’m believe in OSAS. “For by grace you saved through faith, not of works….” (Eph. 2:9). We don’t receive salvation from works and we don’t lose it from works. All true believers will persevere until the end.

I balance the OSAS view in harmony admonitions that are clearly stated from the Bible: In summary, the Bible makes clear that those who believe in Jesus will be saved and those who do not will perish. Confession of faith and baptism in a person’s past will not save them if they are clearly denying Christ today (I John 5).

“Easy-believism” and “decisional regeneration” have never saved anyone. Jesus said we must be born again and those that are born again will never be taken from his hand (John 3 & 6).

 

These letters were written to be read in the church so you may have had someone there who was an unbeliever, but the primary audience was the church. These letters were not tracts that were copied off at Office Max to be given out to friends and they were not hung in the town square for unbelievers.

Why not just deal with the scripture in John 15. Don't you like the way it is worded? The scripture seems clear enough to draw you conclusions about those who don't abide in Christ without having to jump all over the Bible for a rebuttal.

I don't see that you have done anything here but show the possibility of someone having his or her name blotted out.

I am missing your point here.

Again, why don't you deal with the passage given? There is no need for another scripture unless you can't make this one say what you want it to.

That depends on your eschatological viewpoint.

I agree.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

Well, Tim Too, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. There is no way that you can change the way that I see this, and it appears to be the same for you.

I am quite content with my belief in this matter, and have no problem teaching on it. You seem to be very secure in your own view, and I commend you for it. I wish you the best of life, and I pray that you are never in a position that would let you know whether you are right or not.

God bles!

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Thank you Trotter for the discussion. I appreciate your Christlike attitude about our theological deadlock. God’s blessings to you too.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

I personally believe that if a person rejects Christ after he has been "saved", then he was never saved. I've seen it happen. There was this man in church who was a "Christian", yet he would be in the drug trafficking business. Well, he was caught, taken to jail, and while in jain, he accepted Christ 'again' but this time he is a true Christian. He was never of Christ, until then. God punished him to bring him into his people. Now the man is really dedicated to church, got baptized recently, and despite his wife is a non-believe and discourages him, he takes his daughters to church every Sunday. Just my opinion cause I have seen it happen. I know that I shouldn't be basing theology on my personal 'experience', but if there are verses that support this view, I agree with it.

 

I have seen Christians who say they are saved loved Jesus and witness for him do all kinds of things including doing evil to other people, lying, stealing, raping and even murdering. They live like the devil and say they are saved! Give me a break! How foolish can you be and still breathe?

 

Jude 1:4 - (The Message):
What has happened is that some people
have infiltrated our ranks (our
Scriptures warned us this would happen),
who beneath their pious skin are
shameless scoundrels. Their design is
to replace the sheer grace of our God
with sheer license - which means doing
away with Jesus Christ, our one and only Master

God's Grace is NEVER a license to sin.

Galations 5:13 (nKJV):
For you, brethren, have been called to
liberty; only do not use liberty as
an opportunity for the flesh,
but through love serve one another.

God's Liberty is NEVER a license to sin.

 

I don't believe it is "once saved always saved." I believe it is "IF saved always saved." Don't forget the wheat and the tares, and Jesus said that not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter in. The gates of hell will bust open with people who are in church every time the doors open and proffessing to be Christians, but are walking the broad road....