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"Once Saved, Always Saved"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Samuel Owen, May 11, 2008.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The one thing that proves OSAS to me, is the fact that every time I do sin, I'm so over whelmed by the conviction of it, that many times I'm asking for forgiveness just seconds afterwards.
    The man who isn't saved isn't so concerned.
    When we sin we are in fact living in that sin at that moment. Which is why I become confused at the statement that we can't live in sin and be saved. We all live in sin because our flesh is full of it Paul said He lived in a body of death and asked who would save him from it.
    Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
    There are a lot of people who believe they can loose their Salvation and use a few verses in Hebrews to prove it. There problem is that they're only reading a few verses of an entire book. When the whole of the book is understood it clears up the confusion.
    If we believe in Christ and He gives us eternal life, then we do something and we loose it. Then what Christ gave us in the first place wasn't so eternal, was it?. If something is eternal it last forever.
    MB
     
  2. RevJWWhiteJr

    RevJWWhiteJr New Member

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    Once a Child of God

    Gentlemen,
    Even as a youth I did not like the phrase “once saved always saved”. During the course of my study of the Gathering of the Bride by her Bridegroom Jesus, this subject (being intertwined with those teachings) continued to knit itself into my study.

    Heavily Edited (there is quite a bit missing) Excerpt from chapter one of The Partial Rapture “Theory” Explained / Escaping the Coming Storm ,,

    Although I am opposed to the term “once saved always saved”, due to the suggestion one can live whatever lifestyle one wishes after salvation (there are consequences to such actions), I do believe in eternal security of the believer. When the scripture is taken as literal at every occasion applicable, there is no doubt the Bible teaches everlasting refuge for the entire family of God. Once a child of God, always a child of God.

    We will reexamine many of the points made in this chapter in greater detail in the appropriate chapters to come, but in reality that is what salvation is. Becoming a child of God through the blood sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ. Upon acceptance of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross we are immersed (baptized into his death) into the Spirit of God (literally the “womb” of God, the person of God that tasted death for every man). Upon the completion of the baptism of the Spirit (which is instantaneous) we emerge reborn a new creature and retain within ourselves the presence of the Holy Spirit of God. Through the rebirth experience we literally become blood kin to the creator. (That is an awesome concept).

    Through the procedure described he effectively “saves” us from everlasting damnation in hell. Damnation is in reality perpetual separation from the presence of God throughout eternity “future” which, with the inclusion of hell itself, was originally prepared for the devil and his angels.

    The curse of damnation will include the individual punishments each unbeliever has reserved for his or her own self through their behavior during their lifetime in the physical inside their unbelief. Their actions in this life do not necessitate their attendance, merely punishment. Attendance is dictated by unbelief alone. A person does nothing to reserve themselves a place in hell, a person accepts the free gift of salvation to escape everlasting damnation in hell.

    Mark 3:29
    29. But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

    Blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, is the rejection of the Holy Spirit’s urging toward repentance from unbelief by any individual under the conviction of that presence. The Holy Spirit can, and regularly does, convict unbelievers of their unbelief repetitively. This call to repentance can be initiated by loved ones who intervene through prayer to the Father for the salvation of the unbeliever.

    Mark 3:29 mentions the unbeliever is in danger of eternal damnation. They are in danger continually throughout their physical life during their rejection of the call to repentance. If they never yield during their time in this life, at the point of physical death they are guilty of blaspheme against the Holy Ghost and their sin of unbelief goes un-forgiven. There will be no second chance.

    The illustration and comparison of the rebirth experience can be seen in Jesus’ discussion of that process with Nicodemus. In that lesson Jesus likens the spiritual birth to the physical birth. Nicodemus was understandably confused when Jesus told him that a person must be born again.

    He was, of course, speaking of a believers rebirth through the Spirit of God which was to be initiated with his physical death on the cross (in its representation of his spiritual death/separation from the Father) and subsequent resurrection from the grave. But by comparing the salvation experience to the birth process, Jesus places the condition of permanency on the final state.

    Once an individual is physically conceived there is no process that can reverse or change who the biological parents of the offspring are. (And make no mistake, conception is the continuation of the pre-existence of life given by God. Any willful interruption of that process constitutes a deliberate extermination of the continuation of life).

    By the same token, once a person is reborn through the Spirit of God, they become a child of God never again to be anything else. Our relationship to God is not in question, he is our heavenly Father. Our fellowship, however is quite a different matter. It is the fellowship with our Heavenly Father (or in most cases the lack of fellowship) that we will be investigating.

    Ephesians 2:4-10
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Verse four declares God’s love for his creation. That love evokes the grace of God that benefits us initially through the availability of salvation, and then through fellowship with God inside salvation. Verse five points out even when we were dead (separated from God) in sin (the disobedience of unbelief) he had “quickened” us (given us life) together through Jesus Christ. This was done through his foreknowledge at the beginning of creation. Since the physical was spoken into existence by him in a “moment” before time complete from beginning to end. Through the very nature of the process of creation itself, he knows the end from the beginning. We are preordained through our choice in him at the point of creation itself.

    Since we are informed by God’s Word it is by grace (the grace of God) we are saved, we know salvation is obtained by way of grace. But what is grace. If we are saved by grace, then grace and salvation can not be the same thing, although it is obvious they are akin to one another under the New Covenant.

    In reality, grace is the good favor of God. We, as the children of the living God are charged by him to stay (or continue) in his grace (or good favor).

    Luke 2:40
    40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

    The child being spoken of in this passage is Jesus himself. He waxed (was empowered, increased with vigor, was strengthened, was made strong) in the Spirit of God. Through the Spirit he was filled with wisdom, and the grace (good favor) of God was upon him. Jesus was in good favor with the Father (was, is and ever will be, perpetually) by continually being obedient to the will of God in all things. But the grace of God being upon him had nothing whatsoever to do with salvation. Jesus being God manifested in the flesh, was in no need of salvation himself (no matter who has told you otherwise). Therefore, although grace (the good favor of God) is a necessary part of salvation, (there would be no salvation without God’s good favor) it is not salvation in and of itself.

    Ephesians 2:8-10
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Romans 5:15
    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    Through disobedience Adam caused death (separation from God, or the state of being lost) to pass onto all his descendants. The reconciliation of mankind to God is salvation through his Son, Jesus Christ.

    2ndCorinthians 5:18-19
    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    The most definitive of Paul’s writings concerning this subject is found in a letter he wrote to his former travel companion and ministry partner, Timothy. The Church is blessed with this advantage through the possession of that information.

    1stTimothy 1:1-2
    1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; (Jesus, as our “hope”, is a critical point inside our teachings of the Rapture).
    2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Through Paul’s identification of Timothy as his own son in the faith, he makes a declaration that not only is Timothy a believer, but he is a direct “descendant” of Paul’s work in evangelism. Then immediately following this declaration, Paul mentions his usual message of grace and peace with the addition of mercy separating the two in this particular record.

    One can not wish and will the grace, mercy, and peace of salvation itself on one that is most definitely already in possession of salvation. Paul is doing so toward Timothy for him to have an abundance of everything that is good in and of God, within the relationship that already exists between him and the Father. This will strengthen Timothy’s fellowship (and ours) within the existing relationship, as well as help him grow and mature as a child of God, as should we all.

    Grace and peace be multiplied to you all.
     
  3. eightball

    eightball New Member

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    Double post
     
    #23 eightball, May 13, 2008
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  4. eightball

    eightball New Member

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    We have to be very, very, careful about assuming that salvation is based on not "wanting" to sin, as many unsaved would concurr with not wanting to sin.

    Lets take a look at scripture,,,,,,,more specifically, Romans chapter 7 where Paul succinctly explains a dilemma of himself a Christian, and all Christians in total at times.

    *******
    14For we know that the Law is (Z)spiritual, but I am (AA)of flesh, (AB)sold (AC)into bondage to sin.

    15For what I am doing, (AD)I do not understand; for I am not practicing (AE)what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

    16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with (AF)the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

    17So now, (AG)no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (AH)flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

    19For (AI)the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

    20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ)I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    21I find then (AK)the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

    22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (AL)the inner man,

    23but I see (AM)a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (AN)law of my mind and making me a prisoner of (AO)the law of sin which is in my members.

    24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (AP)the body of this (AQ)death?

    25(AR)Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (AS)the law of sin.
    ********
    Now first of all, I don't concur with the belief that the "saved" person is dealing with two natures; the old man in Adam, and the new man in Christ. Gal. 2:20 succinctly states that the old man was left behind at Calvary as we were co-crucified in Christ upon our salvation and entrance into His Crucified, Buried, and Ressurrected life. Now with that, we do have an enemy, as Paul succinctly states.......the Power of Sin, that has access through our yet-unredeemed flesh, and thus impress upon our minds the anti-thesis of God's truth and will for us. Becoming Christians has not made us into people with dual personality disorders or Schizoidal tendencies.

    We have one nature as we did before salvation, only now we have the nature of Christ that indwells our souls..............Yet, we struggle as Paul clearly explained in Romans chapter 7. Sin is a very unholy force propagated by Satan Himself, and it still has access to tempt, lie, and smooze us into sin, if we believe or accept the temptations, and lack the Romans 12:1.... command to "Renew our minds" or saturate our minds with God's truth to counter the old programming from our pre-salvation, dead-to-God lives.

    So a new-born Christian has a new, holy, righteous nature given via God. It is the permanent indwelling of the H.S. or Spirit of Christ. Does this mean that this new Christian will not sin? Absolutely not! James tells us that we are liars if we think we will stop sin 100% in our new lives.......We are fooling ourselves.

    The big, "but" is this. We will as new creations in Christ, desire not to sin, but we will never the less sin, at times as the pull of the unredeemed flesh will work on our minds, emotions, and try to convince us that our salvation is "bunk". We are filled with years of programming from the old life.........when we were slaves to sin, devil and the world. Now this mind of ours has to go through some massive reprogramming, and thats where Romans 12 is so specific.

    1Therefore (A)I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to (B)present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

    2And do not (C)be conformed to (D)this world, but be transformed by the (E)renewing of your mind, so that you may (F)prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect
    ******
    So some of the saved can and could blatantly fall into sin for prolonged periods of time, yet they have the indwelling H.S.. Their lives are most miserable, as they are living-out the very opposite of their true, new nature. Call it spiritual schizophenia, or whatever, it's a state of misery. Spirit and Flesh mix like water and oil. God will not allow it to continue without taking drastic measures that may even lead to physically taking that soul home.

    The battle field is our "will" or "chooser". It was once enslaved to evil or sin, but with salvation, it has been given a great option....."God's Will".
     
  5. RevJWWhiteJr

    RevJWWhiteJr New Member

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    Once a Child of God, Always.

    Gentlemen, :wavey:

    Romans 6:5
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

    If we have been buried with him in baptism (Immersed into the Holy Spirit of God, the person of God which tasted death for every individual) we are assured by him, we will be raised in resurrection in his very likeness. :applause: That is a divine promise. Membership in the family of God is permanent. :1_grouphug: Our relationship is not in question, he is our heavenly Father. Our fellowship (or the lack thereof, :tear: ) with the Father inside that relationship however, is quite a different matter. RevJW.
     
  6. HisServant

    HisServant New Member

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    The answer is found within the contxtual differences between the phrases "is saved and was saved"...

    If our focus is on "either of these two phrases, the question then becomes by whom. If your answer is Christ is my savoir, then you will remain saved throughout eternity. If Christ saves you today, then there is nothing that he will find out about you tomorrow that will cause him to change his mind...
     
  7. Born_in_Crewe

    Born_in_Crewe Member

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    What about ex-Christians who have become atheists? Does this mean they were not really Christians in the first place, or that they have lost their salvation.
     
  8. Samuel Owen

    Samuel Owen New Member

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    I think that would fit in well with. Once enlightened, and coming to the knowledge of the truth, refusing to make a full commitment. Having not continued, have now become reprobate.

    I would not say they have never been on the right track, they just refused what was reveled to them, and others would say they were never saved.
     
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I once thought I was a Christian because my mom and dad were Christians. I have sinced learned that one must be born again. I went to a church for ten years before actually becoming a Christian. If asked at that time I would have said yes i am a Christian. If I hadn't become a Christian after ten years and stopped going to church, went out into the world and got caught up in some kinda cult or paganism, I would be telling folks that I use to be a Christian but have abandoned that from my youth and no longer "believe" that. When in reality, I was never a Christian for those ten years.

    This is why many don't understand OSAS. They point to those who were once a "Christian" (so it seemed) and now are not. But the scriptures allows for this...

    1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    and....

    Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    They were never "born-again". They had Christianity the religion and not the relationship. James also speaks about those who just "say" they have faith yet have no evidence of being born of God. Paul tells the Corinthians to "examine themselves" to see if Jesus Christ is in them because he had some doubts by their actions not becoming those of a true believer.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
    #29 steaver, May 18, 2008
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  10. CarpentersApprentice

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    On the contrary, you sound like a Free Will Baptist or a General Baptist.

    You certainly can be a Baptist AND believe that one can "make shipwreck of his faith," or "turn away from God and be finally lost."

    CA
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Point made. In fact most of use here have some level of Bible reading already in place prior to coming and posting subject threads.

    your point that certain Bible texts must be ignored to hold to OSAS "anyway" is a good one.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Born_in_Crewe

    Born_in_Crewe Member

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    Very helpful verses, although I have edited them out to keep my post short.

    I have to admit, even though my relationship with God sometimes seems a bit weak, i.e. he feels a bit distant, I still have trouble understanding how someone who has been a 'born-again christian' in their own minds for many years could ever become an atheist. Someone who used to go my church (but I don't really know) has gone very anti-Christian as well as atheist. I now wonder whether these 'born again atheists' were the sort of people referred to in the bible verses quoted.
     
  13. kevin hobby

    kevin hobby Guest

    For by grace are ye saved [lit. ‘you have been saved’] through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8,9)

    ...You may find it rewarding to do a study on the Greek text concerning this verse, (if you haven’t already) it’s really quite remarkable what’s being said...

    Here’s a quote from “The Believer’s Study Bible”:

    The full sense of the expression “you have been saved” is difficult to capture in English. The Greek perfect tense emphasizes action initiated in the past, the effects of which continue into the present and beyond. Therefore, salvation has a moment of initiation in the past, but the results of that primary experience continue. This is another evidence of the permanence of our salvation, a doctrine which is called the “eternal security of the believer.” ( Criswell, W A. Believer’s Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)

    ...Just using the perfect tense alone would be enough to emphasize the eternal security of the believer, but the verse also borrows the durative aspect of the present tense verb to give persistence to the existing results....

    For example the Expanded Translation reads:
    "By the grace have you been saved completely with the result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time.” Present time in this instance is always the time at which the reader reads this statement. The security of the believer could not have been expressed in stronger terms. (Bibliotheca Sacra: A quarterly published by Dallas Theological Seminary. Volume 117. Issue 466. Page 142)

    ...That’s why I inserted “you have been saved” into the text as a translation of two Greek words which form what is called in the Greek text a periphrastic perfect...

    To review:
    ...The “perfect” tense refers to action completed in past time, with the results of this action extending into the present and existing in a finished state...

    ...The “periphrastic” construction places additional emphasis on the present finished state and refers to the persistent results during present time of the past completed work...

    ...The present results of the past action, can only (must) continue unchanged forever...
     
    #33 kevin hobby, May 20, 2008
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  14. Samuel Owen

    Samuel Owen New Member

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    Read this one Matt. 13:1 the sower of the seed, this might help to figure out who these people are. Also read on, to get the Lords explanation of this parable.
     
  15. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

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    Salvation is a gift of God. Gifts of God are irrevocable. So says the word of God
     
  16. kevin hobby

    kevin hobby Guest

    "Matt. 13:1", Okay...

    Matthew 13
    1 The same day (something had just happened) went Jesus out of the house
    (Israel), and sat by the sea side (Gentiles).

    "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest ... are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues"

    ...Now as for the parable of the sower, contextually The Kingdom is in view, NOT salvation by grace through faith...

    "When any one heareth the word of the kingdom"

    Matthew 3
    1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
    2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven
    [lit. the kingdom of the heavens] is at hand.

    Matthew 4
    12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
    ...
    17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven
    [lit. the kingdom of the heavens] is at hand.
     
    #36 kevin hobby, May 20, 2008
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  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The beauty of OSAS shines as the bright morning star in that not one, no not one soul who has ever preached or believed that they could somehow forfiet, misplace or lose their salvation has ever failed to endure unto this day believing in Jesus Christ.

    No, not one.

    Praise Jesus for this!!! :jesus:

    Oh, they can and have pointed their fingers at others. Others have lost their once held position in Christ, as far as they can pass judgment anyways, but not one of them has ever failed to believe in Christ. Not one.

    They go on and on and on how the scriptures teach that one can become born into God's family and then turn their back on Christ and cease to believe. But not one of these preachers ever stop believing, why is that? I mean they could come back to this board and say "see, i was right, i don't believe in Jesus Christ anymore".

    Not one real life example of a born of God believer, who after preaching that one can lose their salvation, is found as one who has.

    But look at all of these on this board alone. Both OSAS believers and believers who fight the OSAS doctrine tooth and nail, ALL are still saved. All these living examples of OSAS posting on this board day after day and not one example of one saved then lost.

    "But, but, but the scripture says so" , but not one example.

    But they put all this energy into trying to convince one who knows Jesus Christ personally through the Spirit that someday they might not believe anymore that which they have absolute knowledge of is true. Puzzling indeed.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  18. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    I have yet for anyone to show me how man can undo what only God can do. Pulling verses out of context may work for swaying some, but it doesn't work on me.

    God is the one who does the saving, not man. yet, somehow, some think that man can rip himself free from God's embrace? Or that God is unable to hold that which is His? God never let's go on anyone, whether or not they want to remain. He will chasten those who belong to Him, but He will never release them.
     
  19. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Trotter, or anyone else, can you answer me this: If OSAS is such sound doctrine and so obvious to the discerning heart, why did no one accept it until Augustine around 400, who was universally ignored on this point until Calvin came along in the 1500's? It seems that such a sound doctrine would have been embraced by all, but it was not. It was so far off the map it wasn't even considered or discussed. It wasn't even very wide spread until long after the time of Calvin. Methinks you may be the ones who are taking verses out of context to define a false doctrine that you desperately want to believe is true.
     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    If history is our guideline for matters of faith and doctrine why not accept all the heresies of that prolific writer, Origen? Even the Catholic Church condemned him as a heretic. But hey, he was an "early church father"? If history is your guide, then....
    As for me, the Bible is my only rule of faith and doctrine and the Bible does teach eternal security.
     
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