"Once Saved, Always Saved"

I do believe that we are saved by grace through our faith. However, going back to my example of a husband and wife, (which I find quite similar to Christ and His bride, btw) Standing at the alter, he and I both made a 'commitment' to each other, 'believing' we would be together forever. He gives me a ring, which is a symbol of that commitment, as so, we can look at Christ sheeding his blood for us in a similar way. As I said, there is a divorce, so the ring no longer can symbolize that commitment. I do believe there is power in the blood of Christ, however, one can choose to accept or reject it, whether at the point of it being offered, or later, sort of like giving the ring back.

As I read what I wrote, I know it may not seem to make sense, but it's the best way I can explain it. As far as making it a 'works' issue. Two people can 'work' at thier marriage for years, and one can still decide to leave.

 

:thumbs: :thumbs:

I'll add:

I look at OSAS in very simple terms, this isn’t rocket science…

Christ refers to the Church as His Bride, so look at the OSAS in this sense. When I married my wife a relationship or covenant was initiated. When one commits ones life to Christ, we enter into a covenant and we being a relationship with Christ.

Now, hypothetically, after 15 years of marriage, my wife leaves me for another man. Our relationship is broken. I still love my wife and desire a relationship with her, but in her freewill, she’s turned her back on me. If she decides 5 years from now to enter back into a relationship, then I will welcome her back…

Same applies to our relationship with Christ. Not one thing can separate the love Christ has for me, as long as I maintain and continue to love and grow in Christ. This is not to say that I, in my own freewill can’t turn my back on Christ and our relationship and leave.

Just as we want our kids to love us unconditionally, Christ wants us to do the same…

As long as I nurture my marriage and allow our marriage to grow and blossom, the odds in us breaking our relationship with each other is very, very slim. The same applies to our relationship with Christ. As long as were are faithful to Christ and His Church and strive to become more like Christ (theosis), the odds in one breaking that relationship is also very slim, but we can’t slack off and become idle and allow our love for Christ to dim…the devil is waiting and even though as a Christian he still attacks us, but once we slack off he will attack us with a vengeance.

This is why I’ve taken up the Jesus Prayer: Lord Jesus Christ have mercy upon me a sinner. I say it often and living in the MTV culture of sex and immorality, this is what guards my mind.

InXC
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...I wasn't stating that as my position, I was simply stating what that position is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints

...Salvation, as presented in Scripture, is spoken of in more than one tense and as can be observed, I've already touched upon two of these tenses (comparatively past and future) within my previous posts, here are two verses to demonstrate...

(PAST) All Christians have been saved...
"For by grace are ye saved [lit. ‘you have been saved’] through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8, 9)

(FUTURE) Some Christians are about to be saved...
"Are they [angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of [lit. ‘for the sake of the ones about to inherit’] salvation?" (Heb. 1:14)

...Scripture appears to categorize all unbelievers using the word "soulical" from the Greek word "psychikos" which is derived from the word "psychē" having to do with the soul/life...Psuchikos is the "natural" or "soulical" life (self-life) which man has in common with the animal kingdom. Below the word is translated as ["the natural" man]...

1 Corinthians 2:12-14
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

...In other words, the natural man (with a dead spirit) sees the Word of God as foolishness, simply because his spirit is dead and therefore he can only understand the letter of the matter and not the deeper spirit of the matter. Attempting to show a soulical human, spiritual truth, can be compared to attempting to do the same with an intelligent animal (because animals are dichotomous, ie. possess only body and soul), it simply can't be done. For example all of the Historical events given with in the Tanakh are not only actual events which occurred in time, but each detail of those events outline spiritual truths, the natural man ("dead in trespasses and sins" Eph. 2:1) only sees Historical events but an individual who has "passed from death unto life" (John 5:24) is in a position to truly receive the spiritually discerned Word of God...

...There was a land out before them and there is a land out before us, many of them fell in the wilderness on the right side of the blood though short of the goal of their calling and many of us will fall in the wilderness on the right side of the blood though short of the goal of our calling...

1 Corinthians 9

24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

...notice, a prize, not a gift...

25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

...notice that striving is necessary in order to obtain a crown (rule and reign)...for example one doesn’t earn a gift (salvation by grace through faith), but one has to earn a prize (a crown)...

26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

...notice that Paul (a saved individual) is stating that it is possible that he could be “a castaway”...this is from the Greek word “adokimos” and it means “not approved”...remember that being approved or unapproved is, in this context, in reference to a prize, more specifically, a crown...

1 Corinthians 10

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

...notice that:

all were under the cloud
all passed through the sea
all were baptized
all did eat the same spiritual meat
all did drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ...

5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

...notice that many of the ones who had drank of Christ were overthrown in the wilderness, on the right side of the blood, but short of the goal of their calling (an inheritance the land out ahead)...

6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

...notice that these things were our examples. ("examples" = ”typos”, pronounced tü’-pos, from which we gain our English word “types")...

7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

...notice again, that all these things happened unto them for examples. (all these things happened unto them for types)...

12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

...That's what people tell me, though, it's not what Scripture tells me...

"Bride of Christ question" Post #8
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=48942

The first man, The first Adam and his bride were to rule the earth together
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth…

Before the bride came forth, The first man, The first Adam was put to sleep and his side was opened
Gen 1:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

The first man, The first Adams bride was built from a small portion of his body
Gen 1:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

...moving on...

Abraham sent his servant into a far country to procure a bride for his son from his family
Gen 24:2-4 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell: But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac.

The wife and her damsels ride the 10 (a number of completion) camels of the servant and meet the son halfway
Gen 24:61-63 And Rebekah arose, and her damsels, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man: and the servant took Rebekah, and went his way. And Isaac came from the way of the well Lahairoi; for he dwelt in the south country. And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and, behold, the camels were coming.

Only the wife possessed a vail with which to cover herself
Gen 24:65-67 For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself. And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done. And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah’s tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.

...moving on...

Ruth washed herself, anointed herself, and clothed herself with proper garments before going forth to meet Boaz on his threshing floor at midnight with a view to becoming his wife
Ruth 3:3-11 Wash thyself therefore, and anoint thee, and put thy raiment upon thee, and get thee down to the floor: but make not thyself known unto the man, until he shall have done eating and drinking. And it shall be, when he lieth down, that thou shalt mark the place where he shall lie, and thou shalt go in, and uncover his feet, and lay thee down; and he will tell thee what thou shalt do. And she said unto her, All that thou sayest unto me I will do. And she went down unto the floor, and did according to all that her mother in law bade her. And when Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was merry, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of corn: and she came softly, and uncovered his feet, and laid her down. And it came to pass at midnight, that the man was afraid, and turned himself: and, behold, a woman lay at his feet. And he said, Who art thou? And she answered, I am Ruth thine handmaid: spread therefore thy skirt over thine handmaid; for thou art a near kinsman. And he said, Blessed be thou of the LORD, my daughter: for thou hast shewed more kindness in the latter end than at the beginning, inasmuch as thou followedst not young men, whether poor or rich. And now, my daughter, fear not; I will do to thee all that thou requirest: for all the city of my people doth know that thou art a virtuous woman.

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen ["eklektoi" lit. few are called out]. (Matthew 22:11-14)

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection ["exanastasin" lit. out-resurrection] of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:11-14)

...All of the Body is saved, but the Bride is called out of the Body at the Judgment Seat of Christ...This is why the 24 elders cast their crowns before the throne after the JSOC has occurred (it took place in Rev. 1-3)...The 24 elders represent two-thirds of the multitudinous host of angles which had originally been placed under lucifer (he, being the, at that time and remaining to this day, anointed cherub over this earth) before his fall (before man was created), but refused to follow in his rebellion, therefore necessitating that the heavenly government in relation to this earth be divinely reestablished (ie. "3 sets of 12" instead of only 1 set, thus constituting a divine perfection with in the government)...lucifer's rebellion also necessitated that he be replaced (As Saul) and Christ (As David) with His faithful, will soon be established in place of the current principalities, the authorities, the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places...For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come...Thus, satan is only the god of this age and he knows this, that is why he is blinding the minds of the unbelieving lest the the good news of the glory of the Christ who is the image of God, should shine unto them (ie. the good news centering around when Christ "khristos" meaning "the anointed" shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works ie. the Son of man coming in his kingdom)...

...No...

 

That is an excellent prayer! We should all keep that in our minds and hearts.

From your post, I see that you are saying that we can abandon Christ and give up our salvation and inheritance, but do you believe that Christ will abandon us, or revoke our salvation?

 

Thankfully God is not as fickle as man. Instead of a ring, He gives us eternity. We may turn our backs on Him, but He is the only One who could release us from that marriage... and He will not do it.

If salvation could be laid down and taken back up like a coat, Jesus died in vain. Obviously, if this were the case, His blood would be insufficient to keep us saved. If His blood cannot do the job, we have no hope whatsoever.

Salvation is by grace, purchased by the blood of Christ. If it depends on us, it is of works and not of God. There is only one salvation that actually saves man, and it is the salvation wrought and bought by Christ.

 

No. He is a Millennial Exclusionist, which is not allowed on this board as it has been deemed a heretical teaching by the powers that be.

 

...That's what people tell me, though, it's not what Scripture tells me...

 

J.W.'s and Mormons give the same answer. Why am I not surprised?

 

...My point is, why not center this dialog around comparing Scripture with Scripture instead of what "the powers that be" might think...

Daniel 7:9
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

...Here we have God being referred to as “the Ancient of days”, though, through comparing Scripture with Scripture we are not left guessing as to if God is limited to a specific number of days. The whole of the volume explicitly and unambiguously testifies to the fact that God had no beginning and will have no end, so when we read “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end” we know through comparing Scripture with Scripture how to interpret this truth, thus “comparing spiritual things with spiritual” becomes essential, else we go astray...

John 5:46
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

...let God be true, but every man a liar...

 

Didn't He release Israel? From what I understand, He is waiting for Israel to return to Him. You can't say that Israel was never His in the first place. They turned thier backs on Him.

Yes, but we have to accept that Blood He shed. We have to 'recieve it'. If someone continually lays it down and takes it abck up, that is an issue with them, and I would say they are only looking for fire insurance, and not being taught correctly in the first place. Kind of like a husband who leaves, comes back, leaves, comes back, etc. and expets the wife to be happy about it.

Like I said, we have the choice to accept it or reject it. Now, or later. If it wasn't about works at all, we would either be made perfect at the instant we recieve Christ, or we would go around doing whatever we please, thinking we are still going to heaven. We still have free will, and God doesn't take that from us.

 

First I don’t believe in a “universal salvation” (not saying that you’re implying), but God desires ALL to come to repentance and salvation and obviously that ain’t gonna happen.

I also refuse to look at someone’s life and make a decision regarding their salvation. Paul exhorts us to each workout our own salvation in fear and trembling and that’s what I do.

So your question should be: At what point in our rebellion from our relationship with Christ will God revoke our salvation? That’s a question I will never attempt to answer, only God, the creator of all life can make that call.

Will God abandon the one who is in outright rebellion against Him? Never, He’ll always love the lost and will welcome the one back. But he must do it in our life time…

InXC
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You may want to study the Scripture a lot more. It does not teach that some of the saved will be cast into outer darkness at all.

 

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

"The kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens] is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come (the first offer to Israel, ie. the ministry of John, Jesus, the twelve and the seventy). Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage (the reoffer to Israel). But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city" (the siege of Jerusalem where possibly as many as one million Jews were killed). Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen [lit. few are called out]"...as the first man, the first Adam's bride was taken out of and built from a small portion of his body... ie. "a man which had not on a wedding garment" as opposed to being "arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness [lit. righteous acts] of saints" "therefore she took a vail, and covered herself. And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done. And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah’s tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife" "Wash thyself therefore, and anoint thee, and put thy raiment upon thee"

...This is not a "far out" doctrine, even Charles Stanley realizes that "the darkness, the outer" is not relative to the lost...

 

"So then all Israel shall be saved" (Rom.11:26). They have been set on a shelf for a temporary period of time. He has promised to preserve a remnant unto Himself.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). It is impossibe to "receive and reject, to receive and reject, the blood of Christ. Once received, one is born into the family of God and cannot be "unborn". He cannot be disowned by God. The gift of eternal life cannot be suddenly turned into the gift of "temporal life," making Christ a liar.

Thus you have set forth a conjectural statement of your own that holds no water. It is an "if this should happen," that the Bible teaches will never happen. Stick to what the Bible teaches instead of what your human mind teaches. God knows more than you.

You even have an unbiblical view of marriage. When I got married I said my vows before God and man: "until death do us part." Divorce is not part of the equation. It is unbiblical in God's sight. In God's sight we are married forever. Marriage is forever; just as salvation is forever. If you make a mistake after that, it is not God's mistake it is yours. What is done, cannot be undone.

Mark 10:11-12 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

The choice at the moment of salvation is receive or reject Christ. That is a one time offer. Once saved, one can never be lost again, no matter what sin he committed. Was David lost when he committed adultery and murder? If David had died before Nathan had reached him would he have gone to heaven? Believers still have free will after they are saved--the free will to do evil as well as good. If they do evil will they go to heaven, even if they have a heart attack and find not the time to repent?

 

What doctrine. Parables don't teach doctrine. They only illustrate doctrine that is already established in the Bible. You haven't done that.

 

Can you show me where that unprofitable servant was taken out of outer darkness later?

I can show you where Judas, a servant of Christ, also proved to be a servant of satan. How that servant of Christ never truly was saved, but was indeed the 'son of perdition.

Many who claim to be 'of Christ,' who 'did many wonderful works in Thy name,' never were saved according to Christ's words in Matthew 7.

 

?Who said so?

 

Ok. I thought that's what you probably meant. :thumbs:

No, I do not believe in universal salvation either.

 

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens]; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

...As should be apparent, because God is omniscient a statement such as "I never knew you" has to be relative to something and in this context, it is relative to entrance into or exclusion from The Kingdom...