one wife

*Music4Him* ~stepping up on the soap box~
Gentelmen of course I may not get a response from the "women should keep quiet group". But please do tell me where that law is written in God's OT law. You know when I step behind the pulpit at church to minister in song/sing, or testify.... I have not once seen a man jump up and walk out saying its a shame and that women should keep their mouths shut in church! If you are serious about women keeping quite in church you ought to go on ahead this Sunday and tell them ladies (or better yet hand them a peice of duct tape) and tell them to keep silent in church....no singing, or nothin!
Also explain to me how come there are prophetess spoken of in the NT (for one was Anna who departed not from the temple in Luke 2:36-38)? Why did Paul tell the brethren (men and women) to seek to prophesy (I'm assuming in church) if not permited to let a woman speak?
There is only two scriptures that you can pull up and throw at women to try and silence them, but Jesus seemed to speak like it was alright for women to speak? I thought no man ought to think himself higher than other men? Ref. Romans 12:3 but if you'd like read the whole chapter and tell me that women are excluded and its just for men only. While your at it also read Romans 13, Love fulfills the law.

Music4Him

Gal. 3:28 ~ There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
.....and Paul pretty much says as much in Colossians 3:11...my conclusion is that I can find more verses pointing to women having some freedom..... something else must had been going on in Corinth? Possibly what Johnv said in his June 18, 2004 11:23 AM post above. The women there in Corinth must of not known how to behave decently (possibly uneducated because of the part of scripture to ask their husbands at home?) and there was no order because of it. But I have a feeling we arn't in Corinth anymore Toto. LOL

Thank you gentelmen
~Music4Him stepping off her soap box~

 

John,

Even if the cultural situation were as you suggested (and I'm not sure what the evidence is for that), Paul's commands in 1 Timothy do not make sense if he is addressing issues regarding that cultural scenerio. How does "teaching" and "usurping authority" have anything to do with women calling out to their husbands from outside the building? For that matter, what does their adorning have to do with where they are seated? Frankly, if women were not allowed in the church, then there would be no need for Paul to prohibit their teaching men in the church service.

Andy

 

There is a Bible answer to your query. The Bible says in 1 Timothy that women are not to teach, but in Acts 2:17-18 and 1 Cor 11:5, we see that they can prophecy. How do you reconcile these two things? The key, I believe, is found in 1 Chron 25:1-3 where the Bible says that musical ministry (both vocal and instrumental) is prophecy (in the forthtelling rather than foretelling aspect). Prophecy is a verbal gift that includes preaching, teaching, and singing. Women are not allowed according to the Bible to preach or teach before men, but there is no injunction against singing (or praying). 1 Cor. 11 actually indicates that women should wear a headcovering when they pray or prophecy as to not dishonor head -- I'm not going to get into the debate as to what that is. I only bring it up to show that there is an issue of authority that needs to be addressed even when women sing or pray in church.

It's hard to fully answer your question in just a few sentences, but that's how I understand the issues involved.

Andy

 

John,

Even if the cultural situation were as you suggested (and I'm not sure what the evidence is for that), Paul's commands in 1 Timothy do not make sense if he is addressing issues regarding that cultural scenerio. How does "teaching" and "usurping authority" have anything to do with women calling out to their husbands from outside the building? For that matter, what does their adorning have to do with where they are seated? Frankly, if women were not allowed in the church, then there would be no need for Paul to prohibit their teaching men in the church service.

Andy


As for usurping authority...just a "for instance" here....You sure that the women wern't trying to get their hubbys to leave the church service early so they could beat the Methodist to Outback Steak House?

Acually in the history section of my bible I have this info about 1 Tim.2:11.....
In the first century Jewish culture, women were not allowed to study. When Paul said women should learn quietly and humbly, he was offering them an amazing new opportunity. Paul didn't want Ephesian women to teach because they didn't have enough knowledge or experiance. The Ephesian church had a particular problem with false teachers. Evidently the women were especially susceptible to their teaching (2Tim 3:1-9), because they did not yet have enough bibical knowledge to see through the false claims. In addition, some of the women were apparently flaunting their new-found Christian freedom by wearing inappropriate clothing(1Tim.2:9). Paul was telling Timothy not to put anyone (in his case women) into positions of leadership who were not yet mature in the faith (see 1Tim. 5:22 "lay hands on no man suddenly" means not to appoint church leaders to quickly because you might overlook major problems or sins that you don't want to deal with after they are appointed). The same principle applies to churches today (1 Tim.3:6 where it is speaking of the office of bishop).

M4H

 

I think we're going far out of the topic. Back to what Paul said that a pastor should be a husband of one wife.

In the N.T. Jesus made it clear that the law state that marrying another is adultery and polygamy is adultery. This is a simple statement of keeping the law of God being a man of God to preach the gospel. Because before time people were used to have many wives and this is why God wink on this and allowed them because of the hardness of their hearts but Jesus made it clear that this is not so from the beginning and Jesus wants us to follow that a man or a woman should have one wife or husband and this is what Paul meant when he told Timothy that a pastor should be a husband of one wife because a pastor must be an example to his people because he can not preach against adultery if he himself has many wives.

 

I agree with that, because what would the pastor be teaching his congragation if he is married and having an affair on the side or has had several divorces over the years.

 

But that is not the reason Paul gave for his prohibition. You can come up with all these extra-biblical ideas if you want but the text says it was because of the creation order. God designed the man to be the leader of the home and Paul takes that prinicple and applies it (under the inspiration of God) to the church and says, therefore, that women should not teach men and should not usurp authority over the man. There is nothing in the passage about lack of knowledge, sitting outside, etc.

Andy

 

But that is not the reason Paul gave for his prohibition. You can come up with all these extra-biblical ideas if you want but the text says it was because of the creation order. God designed the man to be the leader of the home and Paul takes that prinicple and applies it (under the inspiration of God) to the church and says, therefore, that women should not teach men and should not usurp authority over the man. There is nothing in the passage about lack of knowledge, sitting outside, etc.

Andy </font>[/QUOTE]I said that was in the history section of my bible. The above information I shared I assumed was researched by the professors, surely they were not doing alot of wishful thinking? 2 professors from Dallas Theological Seminary, 3 professors from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, 2 men from Wheaton Collage 1 professor one Dean. 1 at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1 from Bethel College & Seminary
1 from Fuller Theological Sem. amd thats not the whole list its just the profesors.

Out of all these men there are two that "may" have done the reseach on that particilar scripture, and they are Dr.Edwin A. Blum/ Associate Professor of Historical Theology at Dallas Theological Seminary (Baptist country) and Dr. Grant R. Osborne/ Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Also if you'd like to know the bible that I'm useing is a life application study bible put out by Tyndale Home Publishers,Inc.

Music4Him

 

I am sorry to hear that the Life Application Bible is teaching that. I will have to look at one next time I'm in a Christian bookstore to see exactly what they say concerning this passage.

As for these men and institutions that you mention, I have no idea to what extent they argee with or impacted the notes that you have. I do know that there are people at each of those institutions who would take the same position as I do concerning this passage.

But none of that really matters. The key issue is what does the text say. Paul does not argue from the cultural situation he argues from creation. And I'm sure you would agree that Paul trumps Blum, Osborne, you, and me.

Andy

 

I'm not sorry the the life application bible is teaching that. It gives a womean a voice to go out and tell the unbelievers about Jesus too! (No more excuses ladies!) Just like when Jesus told Mary to "Go tell" the otheres He had risen! Yes Paul might trump Blum and Osborne, but Jesus beats them all! What did Jesus say about women? Do a history on the Jewish and Gentile women and customs of that time.

BTW, you might do a search on on some of Pauls sayings because some would seem to contradict that women should be silent because 2 I know of says we are all one if we are in Christ. As for usurping authorithy over a man....no I don't think I do that, if the man in question has a problem with a woman telling him about Jesus then he can leave. I don't bar the doors and make 'em stay or tell them what to do. BTW, I don't want to be a bishop and a deacon neither. But if it is alright for a woman to be an Evangelist then me and my guitar are in service. BTW, sometimes I can't keep quite..... and hafta shout Amen or Halleujah when the preacher is preaching good. Accually I never got kicked out of the Baptist church I used to frequent for doing that either. Halleujah!

Music4Him

 

Who said you can't tell others, even men, about Christ? No one here is arguing against that. The context of 1 Timothy is within the church, the local assembly. Show me where Christ said that women are to teach, preach, or otherwise usurp authority over men in church.

What we have from Paul in the Bible, by the way, is God-breathed. Paul's teaching is just as authoritative as Christ's, since both come from the mouth of God -- Christ's words directly, and Pauls indirectly through the Spirit, but God's words none the less.

We are all one in Christ but we don't all have the same roles, the Bible makes that clear. There is no contradiction.