Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

Elohim…Let me see, You take this to mean 3 persons. Let me ask you something how many Persons are in Jesus Christ? How many persons are in the Golden Calf that the Israelites created to worship when Moses went to the top of the mount to get instructions from God? How many persons were in the Pagan Gods such as Baalberith, Chemosh, Dagon, Baalzebub, and Nisroch?

I can promise you and I can prove to you using the bible and I can show you in the bible that Elohim can not mean three persons.

And you have constantly avoided The words in Ehph. that say ONE LORD, one faith, one baptism. If you are going to separate God in two three separate parts or persons than you separate his Oneness and everything else that has to do with him.

I have not avoided Zech 2. God does not exist in three persons. Ask a Jew if God is three Persons. What would they say? You say God acts like a Person. You say it takes a “Person” to send and to be sent. No…It takes a God who is omnipresent and is big enough to do just that. God can be the sender and the sent all at one time. I would like to ask you, who is limiting God? Is it us or is it the Trinitarians? Your right his name is Yahveh. And we find out in the New Testament that Elohim has manifested himself as the Son of God. Not another Person or God.

When you separate God you leave so much undone. Here are some examples
</font>

• Genesis 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
  If God was talking with two other persons in Gen 1:26 and if God exists in a plurality of Persons than God was wrong when he said “by myself”</font>
• Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
  
  God does not exist in a plurality of persons. He is one, he is by himself</font>
• Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
  
  Again, God is by himself. He does not have two other people converting with him in the Godhead.</font>
• Jeremiah 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.
  
  Where are the other two witnesses at. God is alone in heaven by himself. He is alone, no one else is with him.</font>
• Jeremiah 49:13 For I have sworn by myself, saith the LORD, that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes.
  
  If the Lord is by himself where are the others at? God is not three persons, He is one.</font>
• Ezekiel 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
  
  How can God do this by himself if he exists in three persons?</font>
• Amos 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.
  
  Every one knew that God did not exist in a plurality of Persons. If they understood something else it would have been said.</font>
• Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; THERE IS NONE. beside me.
  
  How much more proof do you need to see that God is by himself? If he were three he would not be by himself.</font>

I could go on and on but I think you get my point. The bible lets us know in Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

In order to understand Christ we must first understand who God is. And we can go to the Old Testament and find that out. We can find out that God is One. That he is alone and that he is by himself. So when we come to the New Testament it should be no surprise to understand that the Son of God is the Father revealed in Flesh. Just b/c God is being sent and God is the one who is sending does not require that we divide God and separate him. It just requires that we need to understand what OUR one God is capable of doing by himeself.

I challenge you to go and say that to any Jew. Listen to their strict monotheistic views. When God came in the Flesh that was the biggest stumbling block for the Jews. They understood how God was omnipresent but they did not understand how God being a Spirit could make himself visible to man. That is why they cannot except the fact that Jesus is the Messiah. And Please feel free to take that Challenge. But I will warn you, when you tell them that Their God is Three, you better watch yourself.

I’m sure you have heard me say it before. The Jews were talking to Jesus and were going to stone him. Jesus said “why do you stone me”? “Is it for my Good works”? And the Jews said, “we stone you not b/c of your Good works but you being a man, you are making yourself to be God”.

The Jews had it a little backwards. Jesus was not a man that was making himself to be God. He was a God that had made himself man.

Before you go saying anything about the “Word” Please understand what the “Word” is. Ask yourself why the writers never used the word “Son” save only one time in Matt 28:19. The word “Son” represents the flesh or the “Man”

The word “WORD” means “LOGOS” and Logos is a plan in the mind of the creator. Strongs lets us know the first time “logos” was used was around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. And then goes on to say “This word was well suited to John's purpose in
John 1.”

Gods Word is no more a separate person than our words are separate People from us.

Thank you

 

Dualhunter, I have shown you that God is by himself. If you dont want to listen to me Listen to the bible. Thats where I got the scripture.

Just b/c Christ has a dual nature does not mean god is Triune. We are made in the image of God. Are we three persons? The Godhead is understood by the things that were made (Romans 1:20) We are his image creature. How many persons do you have?

I dont have time to argue with you. I have shown you scripture that Says "God is by himself" If God is a Trinity and he is infact three seperate Persons or People, God could not say he was by himself.

Im sorry you are hung up on Zech 2. I have already offered you what I beleive. If you dont like it Im sorry.

I have shown you that God is not two Lords. The bible tells us there is only "ONE LORD". Eph 4:5.

Im not shareing what I beleive b/c it sounds good. I'm shareing it with you b/c thats what the bible teaches.

The Word was with God and the Word Was God, thats correct. Are your words with you? Are your words antoher person from you?

Eternal Son huh? Hebrews 1:6 calls the son the First begotton. The son is also the Only Begotten. How can you be eternal if you were begat? In order to be begotten there needs to be a begetter. The sonship had a beginning. This is also contridictory to the Doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity states that They are all three co eternal.

But the Son of God had a beginning. On the contrary the Word has always been. Not as a second person. The Word was with God in the beginning and when the fullness of time Came the Word became flesh and it was called the "Son of God". (Luke 1:35)

The "Son" was the Word in the Beginning. The Word is a Plan. The Son Gods redemptive plan. Not another Person. The Word is our one true God.

God bless

 

Ok...Lets slow down and study this out.

(1) In the beginning was (2) the Word(not son), and the Word(not son) was (3) with God, and (4) the Word was God(Not son).
2 He (the word, not son was in the beginning with God.

There was a beginning to the Sonship. There was never a begining for the Word. The Word has always been, the Son has not.

14 And (18) the Word (Not Son)(19) became flesh, and (20) dwelt among us, and (21) we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of (22) grace and (23) truth.

The only way the "Son" was in the beginning was as the Word of God. Not a seperate Person or enity.

Again the Sonship had a beginning. It was at conception. The "Word" became flesh at conception not the Son.

How do we know this? The bible lets us know when and why the son was called the "SON". Luke 1:35 says "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: THEREFORE also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Word is called the "Son" b/c God is causing the conception.

The Sonship was not before Abraham, but the Eternal Spirit inside that flesh was before Abraham b/c he is the One true God that has always been.

Why would you want to follow a doctrine that says the Son was eternal? The bible lets us know that The Son had a beginning. The bible is clear that he was begotten. And I am sure that you do not wish to refute that.

What bible are you reading out of? You are now telling me that God was begotten? The Correct text should read "Son"

The Father was manifest in the Son. And when Jesus accends back to heaven I can show you that Jesus will manifest himself through the Holy Spirit.

I'm Sorry we dont see eye to eye. I know what the bible teaches on this issue. I have more bible if you would like. I will never run out.

I am not trying to attack your doctrine, but it is a man made doctrine. You dont have to take my word for it, and i know that you want. It was after the apostolic age when the word Trinty and the belief of a Triune God came.

The Bible does not teach that God is three. The Bible only teaches that God is One.

God bless

 

Jesus has two natures. The Man Christ Jesus and The Eternal Spirit of God could both Testify.

 

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Did John Pre-Exist too?

God manifested himself in the Flesh. God made himself known through the Son. Being sent does not require pre-existance.

II Corth 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God is not a "they". God was in Christ reconciling the world unto "HIMSELF"

1 John 3:16 says "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because HE laid down HIS LIFE for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren".

God did not send a second person to come die for our sins. What kind of God is that. If you love someone how much since does it make to send someone else to die for them? Would you not do it yourself dualhunter? Lets get a little personal.

Think of the person you love the most. If it came down to it wether its your children, Wife, Parents or Who ever. If there lives were in danger would you send someone else, or would you do it yourself?

God did not love us so much that he sent someone else to die for our sins. He loved us so much that he came himself and died for us. Not as a seperate person but as the Son of God. Dualhunter, God manifested himself in a human body and called it the Son. He called it his Son B/c he was the one that caused conception (luke 1:35) Now that the Eternal Spirit of God has a Body he can Now die and shed blood for our sins.

Did the Eternal Spirit of God have Blood? Could the eternal Spirit of God die? The only way that was possible was for him to create himself a body. He called that body the Son.

God bless

 

Jesus has two natures. The Man Christ Jesus and The Eternal Spirit of God could both Testify.</font>[/QUOTE]The Son says that the Father who sent Him testifies about Him. It is the Son and the Father who are mentioned as giving testimony here, 2 persons are mentioned and 2 (or more) persons are required according to the Law.</font>[/QUOTE]You are very correct in the fact what was said by the Pahrisees, and by the law. And there were two witnesses. The “Man” Christ Jesus, and The Father. The Son had two natures as you have already explained. His humanity and his Deity could both testify. The Law did require two witnesses but asked for three when it was possible. (Deut 17:6, 19:15). If God really wanted to prove that he was the Second person in the Trinity, Why did he not mention there are three witnesses?

Furthermore Jesus said John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he ye shall die in your sins.

John 14:1-9
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from HENCEFORTHye know him, and have SEEN HIM.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus said concerning the Father “From henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Jesus just told them when you look at me you are looking at the Father. You are not seeing me in Spirit form but you are seeing me as a man.

Phillip said shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. And Jesus said Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known ME Phillip? The Son was the Father manifested in the Flesh.

Jesus also said that the Father was in him. There is no doubt that the Spirit that is in the Man Christ Jesus is none other than that of the Father.

I am still confused to know why you guys label the Trinity as three different “Persons”? You say that Persons is the best term man could come up with. But the Bible has come up with “God is a Spirit”. If God were three it would make since to say that God is three separate Spirits. Why is it that you don’t say that God is Three separate Spirits?

After all the Father is a Spirit, The Son is a Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit. So isn’t that Three separate Spirits?

Can you answer that for me?

God bless

 

Gal 4: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

I don’t think I need to explain that. But just in case. The Word was God and with God in the beginning. Gods Word was not second person. Gods Word was God himself. When the fullness of Time came God robed his Word in Flesh and Called it the Son. The Son was not made before the Law, he was made under the law. The Son was not made eternally he was made of a woman.

Yes the Father did give the Son, but the Son is not a second person. The Son is the Father incarnate. As I said before. God could not die. Death was not required for remission of sins, The shedding of Blood was. And it had to be perfect. There was no one on Earth who was perfect. No one could fill the position that needed to be filled. And God being a God of love did that for us. He did not send a second person. How could God Bleed? God had to make himself a body of flesh just like you and I. So he made himself a Body and sent himself.

You are right The Son is not flesh only but both God and Man. The Son is the Flesh and The Father is the God. When you hear the word “Son” it does not refer to deity, it always refers to the Flesh.

Now Going a step further we know that The Holy Spirit is none other than the Father in his Spirit essence. Jesus proclaimed to be the other comforter that would be sent (John 14:15-18) Thus making it possible to say for in Christ dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. We find in Christ everything that the Godhead is.

Coll 2:8-10
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

The bible then goes on to say that we are complete in him. Which is the Head of all Principality and Power. Jesus is the only thing we need. We don’t need to seek after three persons. When we call on Jesus we call on the one true god who manifested himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Jesus is above YHWA or YHVA. God gave Jesus a Name which is above ANY OTHER NAME.(Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name)

God bless

[ November 13, 2002, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

Humm…Why would the Son not be mentioned here? The term “SON” Refers to the Flesh. Not another person in the Godhead. The Son has not always been. The Son was made of a woman under the Law when the fullness of time Came. (Gal 4:4)

That is one of many contradictions that the doctrine of the Trinity holds. Your doctrine should read “God the Word”. There was a beginning of the Son. You cant prove any different. The Son was made of a woman. The Son was begotten. Again that means he had a starting point in time. That means that the Son is not co-eternal like your doctrine states.

“The Word became flesh”. The bible never states that the Son became flesh. Furthermore the bible never says “God the Son”. The Bible always refers to him as “The Son of God”. This is another Contradictions that the Doctrine of the Trinity upholds.

He not only reveals the Father but he is the Father manifested in the Flesh. (I Tim 3:16)

Tell me, do you believe that God had a beginning? If you don’t maybe you should look up the word begotten. Dualhunter, I know I am right on this. The Flesh of Christ is not eternal. Do you believe that?

That’s b/c Jesus is the Father.

So what is God, A person or a Spirit? He does not have limitations but a Person and a Spirit are two separate things. So…Is God Spirit or Person?

Yes the “Word” (Logos) means to designate the divine reason or plan, which coordinates a
changing universe. (A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C.)

God’s “Word” is God, and God’s “Word” was with God. All things were made by his “Word”. Look up “by” if you have to. It means “Because of for this reason”.

So what I am saying is that the Son was not with God in the Beginning as a separate Person. The bible does not teach that the Son is eternal. The Son was in the beginning with God as the “Word”. The Son or the Flesh of God was a Plan that God has always had. The Son was to be our redeemer. So when the fullness of Time Came God or the “Word” became the Son made of a woman, made under the law. The Son did not become flesh now did it? The Word Became flesh. The Term “Son” refers to the Flesh.” Son” is a term describing man, carrying the connotation of weakness and mortality. (Strongs 5207)

Could God Die? Could God Bleed? Did God need rest? Was this the deity of Christ or were all these things the humanity of Christ?

He was not just born of a woman. The word used in the original text is 1096 ginomai {ghin'-om-ahee}
It means

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

Just wanted to show you that. I’m sorry if its hard for me to use any other version. Don’t get me wrong I don’t thing the KJV is the only bible anyone should read, but I do think its one of the closest we have. So please forgive me.

Hmmm. in·car·nate Pronunciation Key (n-kärnt)
adj.
a. Invested with bodily nature and form: an incarnate spirit.
b. Embodied in human form; personified: a villain who is evil incarnate.
1. Incarnadine.

tr.v. in·car·nat·ed, in·car·nat·ing, in·car·nates (-nt)
a. To give bodily, especially human, form to.
b. To personify.
1. To realize in action or fact; actualize: a community that incarnates its founders' ideals.

Sorry did not mean to confuse you. The Son is the Father in flesh or human form. What I stated was not a contradiction, just two different ways of saying the same thing.

No the Word became flesh and we know that the Flesh is the only begotten of the Father. Who is the only begotten of the Father? It’s the Son. The Son did not pre-exist, the Word did. The Son was never Eternal. The Word was.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch3.htm
Here is a Link you can go to for that. I will save that for another topic.

God bless

[ November 13, 2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

Sorry to have taken so long to reply. We have had "East Coast Conference" this week.

That is correct. But what you are not seeing is that the “Son of God” had a beginning. The Word became flesh. It tells us that in verse 14 of John in the 1st Chapter. The “Word” is not a separate Person.. I have already shown you why Jesus was called the “Son of God”(Luke 1:35)

The “Son” was not called the “Son” b/c he was a different person than the Father. He was called a Son b/c God caused the Conception. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all relationships to Humanity. Isa 9:6 lets us know that the “Son” would be called “The Everlasting Father”. Jesus Christ is our Father who came in the flesh and manifested himself as the Son of God. He is not a separate Person.

Are your thoughts and ideas with you? Are your words with you? Are they separate from you?

Dualhunter…You should read “The Oneness of God” by David K. Bernard. If you want I will even pay for it for you. Its only $11.00. If you don’t mind would you allow me to start cutting and pasting some things out of his book just for quotes? B/c he can put things in to words way better than I can. The Reason I am asking this is b/c I try my best no to post others work. I like to show you what I believe from my own self. Not just something someone else wrote it. But I can assure you that What I post is what I believe. And second a lot of things are being rehashed and I thought “Man Pastor Bernard can put what I believe in words so much better than I can” And maybe you could understand what I am trying to say that I cant find the right words for. You’ve heard it said before; “If I could only say it like I feel it”. And when I read what he says its just that.

 

Do you have AOL Instant Messenger? If So I would Love to chat with you via Aim.

Im sorry for the quotes but I am growing tired of rehashing the same thing.

You either understand it or you dont. I cant make you understand it. The only thing I can do is share it with you.

But really..I would love to chat with you on AIM if you have it. Just let me know.