Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration :)

I am saying that I have yet to read an ordu salutis in the Scripture. It is an interesting subject, but theologians have spent WAY too much time on something the Scripture does not explicity teach.

 

As I remarked before Allan, the texts of Scripture that support your points above do not teach an ordo salutis. They teach faith vs. works. If you want to hold to your ordo salutis, be my guest.

Your conclusions, in my opinion, make you and your freewill the cause of your regeneration. Congratulations. Your one of the first in human history to raise themselves from the dead...

 

RB, that is more played out than the theme song to Titanic. It is the lamest strawman given by the reformed. I notice you didn't actually deal with Allan's points, just erected another strawman. Typical. The passages teach more than faith v. works. A clear order of that faith is presented, yet you deny the very basic tenants of Scripture.

I remember a time on the BB where you actually debated. I see you have fallen into the typical ad hominem trap most calvinists on the BB fall into.

 

How can something straight from Scriture be "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

 

yes we shall.

If we were to follow Bible teaching, life comes 1st. Before understanding.

 

The way Allan and Webdog have degenerated this thread is why I don't post much anymore. I will see you both before the Lord Jesus and we will see how much "I" is in your regeneration.

 

Just make sure you don't presume that you have no part in your salvation -- else we may not meet at the same time before Jesus.

I'm sure you would agree that there are many people who know the gospel message but who "sit on their hands" having the smug but erroneous notion that understanding it proves they are saved.

Eph 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, [THEN] ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

According to this passage, I do not see that regeneration by the Holy Spirit can come until after one believes. Do you?

Would it make any more sense to you if I quoted Acts 2:38 again? Believing the gospel, we are to "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

skypair

 

Hi Allan;

I don't see it as the Calvinist do but I do see that Salvation is all of God. Man's decision as you and skypair call it isn't a decision to believe or a choice of Christ as opposed to Satan.

It seems to me that both Calvinist and freewillers have missed the message. You both have some things right but neither side includeds all aspects of what scripture teaches. Shouldn't we consider all of what God's word actually says? Eph 2:8 teaches that it is all of God and Act 16:31 teaches that we must believe first. Both are right though not the way both sides describe it.

Man must be willing to listen but man's willingness to listen is brought on by the drawing to hear the gospel. Man's will is influenced by his senses. Man senses a drawing to hear what the gospel is all about. If the man ever believes he will believe only if he is convinced. Therefore his belief is dependant on the one doing the convincing. Man doesn't choose to believe because, he is either convinced or he isn't. There is always the rebellious nature of man and this nature is what makes a decision and it's always to rebel or not. Man's freewill doesn't extend any futher than that.

You are right about regeneration this does not happen until the man is convinced and becomes a believer. Being saved before faith is not biblical in any way. Many are drawn and many hear the gospel and yet reject it because they have chosen to reject it. However if a man is completely convinced of the truth he can't help but believe it. If the man chooses to rebel even then and some do. He still believes it and it convicts him to the bone. He has no choice in believing it but he isn't saved until he surrenders to Christ. You may disagree with me but this is how I came to know this. This above is exactly what happened to me.

I fought against accepting Christ in spite of the fact that I believed all that I had been taught about Christ. It haunted me it never let me have any peace. It convicted me ever time I heard His name. My own convictions pursued me to absolute defeat. Once defeated there wasn't any other way to go except death and I considerd it. Finaly I gave up and surrenderd. It wasn't a choice but the results of the work of God on my heart. Every bit of the process of my own Salvation was the work of God, from the drawing, to convincing, to belief, and surrender.

You might say "well you had to decide to surrender there for there's your decision". I would say no because to me life is to precious to commit suicide that means I had no choice. If you ever reached the bottom of your self, then you know there is only one way to go from there. :thumbs: UP!
MB

 

Copout. I suppose throwing around "pelagian" is not degeneration

BTW, there is no "I" in regeneration. It's the result of faith.

 

I talked about life.

Life.."regeneration" comes before understanding. That is what the Bible says, and that is what my post said.

 

What arrogance.

 

Nothing arrogant about proclaiming biblical Truth. Arrogance is using the crutch the thread has "degenerated" below your level due to point blank questions posed to you.

 

IOW, you are insinuating that we are like the demons who can believe but cannot choose??

You're getting confused here, MB. Eph does NOT say "all of God." It says faith and even grace is a "gift of God." That does not mean that we don't have to believe it before we receive it. Similarly, Acts says we must believe, then RECEIVE.

skypair