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OSAS does not survive the "Sola Scriptura test" in Matthew 18..etc

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 9, 2018.

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  1. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Where did I say/write that He [Jesus] ever did [baptize with water]? Evidence please.
     
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Nicodemus had no opportunity to "choose" to accept what was still mystery. A mystery is a previously revealed truth:


    Romans 16:24-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



    The Mystery was not made known to the sons of men or Saints in prior generations or Ages:


    Ephesians 3
    King James Version (KJV)


    1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:



    Now you can appeal to the same argument provided by most of the "Baptists" I have spoken with, which is that the mystery is Gentile Inclusion. However, that does not change the testimony of Scripture in regards to man's cluelessness concerning Who Christ was and what He would do, and, we do not see Gentile Inclusion as the Theme in Romans 16. The dispensation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was given to Paul to Gentiles, not that Gentiles being made one with Christ was the Mystery. That does not nullify his statements in vv.3-5, for we would have to suppose that Jews were being baptized into Christ and Gentiles were not.

    That too is against Scripture, for not only were Gentiles prophesied as being saved through Christ...


    Isaiah 42
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.



    ...we also see the distinction between the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant. That is the only Everlasting Covenant in a slavific context.


    OSAS doesn't impact belief or faith in the least.

    The reason, One Baptism, is this: men are saved through the operation of the Comforter, who enlightens the natural mind to the truth of the Gospel:


    John 16:7-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



    Men do not "choose" to be saved, they simply respond to the Comforter's Ministry. Does a man use free will to have fear when a doctor tells him he has cancer?

    Neither do men use free will to acknowledge the truth of the Gospel.


    God bless.
     
  3. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Explain this statement then of Jesus, since being "born again" was commonly known in the OT, and taught by the Rabbis:

    John 3:10 KJB - Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    C'mon, answer:

    1 Samuel 10:6 KJB - And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

    1 Samuel 10:7 KJB - And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

    1 Samuel 10:8 KJB - And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.

    1 Samuel 10:9 KJB - And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
    King Saul was born again of the Holy Ghost, yes or no?
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The subject of the OP is "OSAS does not survive the "Sola Scriptura test" in Matthew 18."

    That opens it up to the primary thrust of the topic, but, if you would like to my response again, here it is:


    Remission of sins is not based on whether we forgive men or not, it is based on Christ dying to atone for the penalty our sin incurs.

    And when God forgives us, it is permanent:


    Hebrews 10:15-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.



    The men this promise was spoken to were in the same Age those you use to proof text your doctrine were...the Age of Law.

    Christ ministered to men under the Law, and was under the Law Himself:


    Galatians 4:3-5
    King James Version (KJV)

    3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

    4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.



    See how Paul points out those two Ages, clearly distinguishing between them. See how He says Christ came to redeem those under the Law? So why would you want to put men back under the Law? That is what you do when you compare a temporal setting with the Remission of Sins God promised and gives to those He eternally redeems.

    I have tried to point out to you before that men were not made sons of God until Pentecost, when Christ began to Baptize them with the Holy Ghost. John makes this clear:


    John 1:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



    When God forgives, it is forever, as it is written.


    However, most of these posts are in response to your Judaism, which is weak at best, so don't talk to me about being off topic. My posts have consistently supported both Eternal Security as well as Sola Scriptura, which is evident in that I am actually presenting the Scripture to support my position, as opposed to your colorful quotes of Scripture passages that people have to look up for themselves.


    God bless.
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    That really doesn't help, Yeshua! You have to show why they are contrary to Scripture. When you simply make the charges, you do exactly what they do.


    God bless.
     
  6. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    they and others have common false doctrine, perhaps another thread

    The problem is we do not get to the problems, just have to listen to unrelated mantra
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Peter answers that question for you:

    1 Peter 1
    King James Version (KJV)


    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



    That is why He is called...


    Hebrews 12:2
    King James Version (KJV)

    2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.



    The word "finisher" could be translated "Completer." It has the same root as all of the Writer's references to being made perfect, perfection, and made perfect.

    We are made perfect in regards to remission of sins by the Perfecter/Completer.

    What that means is Eternal Security.

    Just because some think that Eternal Security is a license for sin, don't believe it. Christians are still under the threat of death for violation of God's will, as seen in Ananias and Sapphira, and those who partake of Communion unworthily. We can be put to death physically for unrepentant sin, but, that does not impact Positional Sanctification.

    We have received the same remission of sins promised to Israel when they were under the First Covenant:


    Hebrews 10:14-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.



    All believers are going to sin after salvation, that is because we remain in unredeemed flesh. That is not a license to sin nor an excuse not to be holy, for He is Holy.

    Eternal Security was taught by Christ in many of His teachings, and the only question we can ask is...how can you so utterly miss that?

    It may be that you simply do not understand the concepts of life and death as taught in Scripture. All men are born...dead. No man has life on an eternal level until he receives Christ, and is immersed into God (baptized with the Holy Ghost):


    John 6:53
    King James Version (KJV)

    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.



    God bless.
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    That is not correct. Even now, while trying to deny your Judaism, you seek to defend it.


    Galatians 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



    Paul assumes salvation. We can view it as hypothetical, that has an application, but his point remains "(If) You have begun in the Spirit, are you now perfected by the flesh (which implies the works of the flesh, particularly the keeping of the Law, which is stated in v.2)?" The question makes the statement "You did not receive the Spirit through the works of the Law, why would you think you are made perfect through them?"

    The perfection here deals with Progressive Sanctification, that is evident in the context.

    Its a very simple chapter to understand:


    Galatians 3:11-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.



    Its always going to come back to the promise of God, and as I told you before, we do not keep the Law to be saved, or to maintain our salvation, we keep the Law because we are saved, and have received the Promised Spirit:


    Ezekiel 36:27
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



    Continued...
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I do not judge Seventh Day Adventists, I only judge the doctrine of those who are members here.

    I am quite confident that there are SDAs who are ignorant of much of the false doctrine you present. In every group there are those too ignorant to be saved, and too ignorant to be damned, lol.

    And what you teach is that men must maintain their salvation through keeping of the Law.

    If you want to deny that...be my guest. Just tell me now that you do not advocate keeping the Sabbath, which has been evident in your posts. Or that you do not confuse the commandments of Christ with the Ten Commandments.


    Very good. And if one chooses not to keep the Sabbath?


    Precisely.


    Don't say "us," because the only SDAs I know are you and Bob.

    And I have invited you to respond to my points but you have pretty much ignored that. You have only directly quoted maybe two points I have made so far.


    God bless.
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I agree: God's Law has always been for the benefit of mankind.

    However, you have to distinguish between the principles of God's Will in the Law, both the Covenant and the Written Word (which I don't think you know how to distinguish between).

    Let me ask you this: ever looked on a woman that is not your wife and lusted? Be honest.


    Continued...
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    This speaks of man's love for God.

    And the bottom line on that point is this:


    1 John 4:19
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 We love him, because he first loved us.



    You have it completely backwards, teaching men they must love God by keeping His commandments.


    Continued...
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    If you want to promote the love of man, great. Otherwise...you have made no point that supports your law keeping. You have presented nothing that denies the fact that those who do keep His Law do so because of the indwelling of God, which came about, not because of something men do (such as the mythological free will choice), but because of what God has done.

    He is the One that enlightens the blind natural mind to truth, and gives men the opportunity to respond in faith. Natural man has no understanding of his condition or his destiny, that is why he mocks Eternal Judgment.

    Now, you apparently have no inkling as to what the Gospel means, and mock Eternal Judgment, so what am I to conclude?


    Continued...
     
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Again, nothing to support keeping the Law as Christians, so I will throw another stumblingblock for your false doctrine your way:


    Acts 15:22-29
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

    23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

    24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

    25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

    26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

    28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

    29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.



    Your doctrine does not conform to this, but correlates to the doctrine of those who trouble Christians, subvert souls, saying men must keep the Law.

    So deny it, but, if you notice, everyone opposing your doctrine sees it.


    Continued...
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I agree. But obedience is something one is born again unto. All believers start out as babes, and it is God, not you, not Bob, that teaches them in regards to His will.


    Well, when you can show me why your religion is right, and Paul is wrong...


    Colossians 2:12-16
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:



    ...then perhaps you might have something to say. Until then, it seems that Christ has triumphed over your religion.


    Romans 14
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

    2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

    3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

    4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

    5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.



    So, ever had a BLT on Saturday? Be honest...


    Continued...
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    But you still miss Paul's point, lol...


    Galatians 3:19-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.



    Scripture speaks for itself.

    You are in direct opposition to the teachings of Scripture. You teach Judaism, and the sad fact is that you cannot even accomplish that. There is no way you can properly keep the Law when there is no Levitical Priesthood. And we all know why there is no longer a need for the Priesthood...

    ...why don't you?


    Continued...
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    "Jesus Law" is not the Ten Commandments.

    That is not the "yoke" Christ taught about, it is the yoke Peter and Paul spoke against:


    Acts 15:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?




    Galatians 5
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.



    Do you really want to deny you are teaching men must keep the Law?


    Continued...
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I agree with all of these, the problem is...you do not understand what context to put these in, because you are ignorant of the difference between the Covenants of Old and the New Covenant.

    For example:

    What happened to men that did not keep His Law?

    They died, physically.

    Now whose laws are in view?


    Proverbs 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

    2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.



    This is the father speaking to the son, not The Father speaking to a Son.

    No man was aware of the Mystery of the Gospel, and being eternally indwelt by GOd because He had atoned for their sins in completion.

    So in view is extension of physical life, not eternal life.


    Ephesians 6:2
    King James Version (KJV)

    2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;



    Exodus 20:12
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.



    So the question here is...what are you trying to say? Hopefully, it is not that men can gain eternal life through keeping the Law. Men can gain extended physical life by keeping the Law, and lose their physical lives by not keeping it, as I said...that principle still applies. But it has nothing to do with a salvific context, and that is where your doctrine departs from Biblical Truth.

    And I am about out of time (about 30 minutes ago, lol), so I will have to come back to the rest, unless they are short and can be quickly addressed.


    God bless.
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The context deals with regeneration (becoming the sons of God).

    It has nothing to do with God being arbitrary, it has to do with the fact that man in his natural state will naturally reject God and His efforts to help them. IT began with Adam, and has not changed to this day.

    As I said before, Creation is not in view in this part of the text, the Incarnation is.


    God bless.
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sure:

    That is what my statement was based on, and I see here I made a mistake, so my apologies.

    Did lead to some good Scripture and an excellent point though...

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    What Nicodemus should have known, which gains him a rebuke, was the promise of New Birth:


    Ezekiel 36:24-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



    And what you should know is that the "Kingdom of God" awaited was a physical Kingdom in the minds of the Jews, even their "great" teachers.

    Nicodemus responds with a physical understanding when he should have thought of Ezekiel 36 and Ezekiel 37:


    Ezekiel 37:11-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

    13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

    14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.



    Instead, much like you, he gets it completely wrong:



    John 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

    2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



    Now you tell me, is Nicodemus even in the right ballpark?

    Neither are you, based on your next question.


    Continued...
     
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