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OSAS does not survive the "Sola Scriptura test" in Matthew 18..etc

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 9, 2018.

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  1. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    They really have not accepted, these are call professor, not really saved.
    We say, they were not really saved.
    I find if a true Christian falls to a life of sin, he will die prematurely.

    Since God paid one price in full, one salvation was sufficient, to cover all sins, even future ones. If we sin , we just ask for forgiveness, not to be re saved but to restore the relationship with Jesus
     
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You are merging His teaching to Israel with the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which came...

    ...after He returned to Heaven and sent the Comforter:


    John 7:38-39
    King James Version (KJV)

    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



    Nobody was believing on the Risen Savior, and nobody was indwelt by God.

    That would not take place until Pentecost:


    Acts 1:4-5
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



    Christ taught them of the Eternal INdwelling of God here:


    John 14:15-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



    John 14
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



    But that wouldn't take place until after Christ returned to Heaven:


    John 16:7-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



    And that being baptized with the Holy Ghost is salvation itself is explained by Peter:


    Acts 11:13-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

    14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



    And nowhere does Scripture teach that when we receive remission of sins through the REdemption which is in Christ Jesus...that is revoked.

    What Scripture does teach is that remission of sins is...forever:


    Hebrews 10:1 & 4
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.





    Hebrews 10:10 & 14
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



    When God says He has forgiven forever, Bob, you reject His Word in teaching "forgiveness revoked."


    Continued...
     
  3. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    The blanket pardon referred to by IoDebar
     
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    But what if that relationship is fundamentally breached?
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And remission can be revoked, but not in a context of Eternal Salvation, where those saved received Eternal Remission.

    I can not be forgiven of my Father if I do not forgive you for such terrible Soteriology, but, that has nothing to do with Christ dying in my stead that I might be forgiven of my sin through His death.


    If we tried to place an eternal context in this, then I guess Catholicism has a basis for their doctrine of Purgatory, because if you notice, Bob, the offender has the possibility of getting out of the torture he was delivered unto.

    But we don't need to let the error escalate, if we simply learn how to identify whether a context is temporal/physical, or spiritual.eternal.

    This is specific to Israel, to whom Christ was sent:


    Matthew 15:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



    As I said before, I have no problem with this teaching as long as it is contained in its proper context. Yes, God will revoke remission from those who refuse to forgive, but, one basic principle is that men are saved and forgiven their sins, not because they have first forgiven others, but because God extended grace to a people who did not deserve to be forgiven.

    If you would embrace Sola Scriptura, you would see why OSAS, Eternal Security, is irrefutable. But as long as you interject the doctrines of men into your soteriology, you will have only Bob to rely on, and that's only going to get you so far, my friend.


    God bless.
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Oh, you're playing devil's advocate. Sorry.

    I'll leave you two to work that out.


    God bless.
     
  7. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    What would be your answer?
     
  8. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    If you are not forgiven, in what sense are you saved?
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The posts speak of the failure of the OP to distinguish between Eternal Remission and remission of sins that is temporal.

    I am not sure what part of this...


    ...generates your question, because there is nothing in it that suggests being saved and "not forgiven."

    The point made is that men are forgiven by God in an eternal context...based on nothing. Not forgiving other men is included, because all men need remission of sins through Christ, not from other men.

    We do see a temporal context of remission of sins among men in Scripture (among Christians):


    2 Corinthians 2:5-8
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.

    6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.

    7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

    8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.



    Ephesians 4:32
    King James Version (KJV)

    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.



    Galatians 6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.



    But to confuse temporal remission among ourselves with...


    Colossians 1:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:



    ...doesn't make a lot of sense.


    God bless.
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    "Blanket pardon" is not a biblical concept. One is not forgiven until they respond to the Gospel of Christ.

    While the Cross of Christ is sufficient to save all men, it has relevance only to those who embrace the truth and turn to Christ for remission of sins. Only then do men receive the remission brought about by His vicarious death.


    Acts 17:30
    King James Version (KJV)

    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:



    Hope everyone has a blessed day in the Lord.

    God bless.
     
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  11. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Wrong, Darrel it is two parts not one. It is not singular forgiveness The sins of the world are paid for, account settled.. We can participate by accept that forgiveness or not. If we do not choose to accept the pardon, it is still there for us just not used
     
  12. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    We are all forgiven, ..." sins of the world.. " Accepting that pardon depends in me
     
  13. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    He says he is not a Calvinist but wan't to play "they were never elect to begin with" card.


    FREE WILL can someone who is saved LEAVE? or is he stuck AGAINST HIS WILL?
     
  14. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    They are willingly blind and deaf. They themselves refuse to see, as it is written:

    Matthew 13:15 KJB - For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

    Words that modify, or are conditions set forth by God, like "if", "abide", "continue", "otherwise", "cut off", "remain", "castaway", "was", "washed", "covered", "then", "shall", "until", all go unseen, and unheard. They see and hear what they desire, that they do not have to deal with their sins, that they presently do, for they do not even understand the simple definition of sin, as it is plainly given in 1 John 3:4 KJB, and because of this, their heart grows hard against the Holy Ghost Himself, who repoves of sin, righteousness and judgment [John 16:8 KJB], and so they flee from the questions He asks, unwilling to face the mirror [James 1:23 KJB], and the answer it so manifestly gives:

    Hebrews 5:11 KJB - Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

    Hebrews 5:12 KJB - For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.​

    Paul, in Romans 8:38-39 KJB, clearly states that only one thing will separate us from God, and it is not external to us.

    They will instead cling to their texts, which they themselves abuse, and wrest from their meaning [such as Hebrews 10:14 KJB, etc], unwilling to read the remaining context, which overthrows their self-important and sinful lifestyle. They deceive only themselves. Scripture, is clear, they are what they are, 1 John 2:4 KJB, though they profess otherwise, but what proceeeds from their mouth, stems from their father, John 8:44 KJB, for out of their heart, their mouth speaketh, shewing that they are the children of another, Matthew 13:18 KJB. They, like, the professed atheist, who says that they have never had evidence for God's existence, in which Romans 1 declares by the Holy Ghost, that they have had such evidence, even all around them, why then do men believe their words, over and above what God already declared them to be? I refuse their lies. I accept God's judgment of them. They will perish if they do not repent, and their refuge of lies will not save them:

    Isaiah 28:17 KJB - Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
    They have not hold of the New Covenant, but they hold the covenant of hell and death [Romans 6:23 KJB], which shall be utterly disannulled:

    Isaiah 28:15 KJB - Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

    Isaiah 28:18 KJB - And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.​

    They refuse to humble themselves before God, and to admit their errors - so be it. Woe unto you Chorazin. Woe unto you Bethsaida. Woe unto you Sodoma and Gomorrah:

    Amos 5:18 KJB - Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.​
     
    #94 One Baptism, Mar 11, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Matthew 5:13 KJB - Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
     
  16. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    2 Corinthians 5:19 KJB - To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Repent.
     
  17. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Context, Ten Commandments [John 14:15; Exodus 20:6 KJB:

    John 14:15 KJB - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Exodus 20:6 KJB And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    Deuteronomy 5:10 KJB - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

    John 14:21 KJB - He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    James 4:12 KJB - There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

    1 Samuel 10:9 KJB - And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

    1 Samuel 15:11 KJB - It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.​

    Context, Deuteronomy 5 [the Ten Commandments]:

    Deuteronomy 6:5 KJB - And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Deuternomy 6:6 KJB - And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

    Deuteronomy 6:7 KJB - And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

    Deuteronomy 6:8 KJB - And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

    Deuteronomy 6:9 KJB - And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
    Context, sin [Exodus 20 KJB]

    Exodus 20:20 KJB - And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

    Exodus 32:33 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    Leviticus 19:17 KJB - Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

    Leviticus 19:18 KJB - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.​
     
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  18. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    "His will":

    Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Psalms 40:8 KJB - I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

    Psalms 40:9 KJB - I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.

    Psalms 40:10 KJB - I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

    Psalms 143:10 KJB - Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.

    Matthew 6:10 KJB - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    Psalms 103:20 KJB - Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
    Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Hebrews 10:8 KJB - Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    Hebrews 10:9 KJB- Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    Psalms 119:47 KJB - And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.

    Micah 4:2 KJB - And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    Jeremiah 31:33 KJB - But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Jeremiah 6:19 KJB - Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

    Jeremiah 26:4 KJB - And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you,

    Hosea 4:6 KJB - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
    The warning is faithfully given. I am clean of your blood.
     
  19. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Connection, fundamentally breached?

    John 15:2 KJB - Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

    John 15:4 KJB - Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    John 15:6 KJB - If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJB - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Revelation 2:4 KJB - Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

    Revelation 2:5 KJB - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    Revelation 2:16 KJB - Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    Revelation 2:21 KJB - And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

    Revelation 2:22 KJB - Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

    Revelation 2:23 KJB - And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Revelation 3:3 KJB - Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.​
     
  20. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Calvinism or "elect" is a man made opinion trying to explain things with insufficient knowledge and inappropriate logic.

    Besides, Calvin is a Frenchie
     
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