OSAS is only a problem for people who don't trust God

Thread Title: "OSAS is only a problem for people who don't trust God"

GE
It is self-explanatory.
For people who do trust God, OSAS is no problem.

 

GE
Isn't 'tripe' a concoction of the entrails of dead animals served up?

 

Steaver
"Actually most of my best friends in Christ do not agree with OSAS, but that doesn't change our love and kindness for each other. Paul said you can be somewhat great in many things but if you have not love you are missing the greatest quality."

GE
This is a hard Law most difficult and impossible after all. I don't say we shouldn't do our best to obey it; I only remind you of what a challenge it is. I left the SDA Church - just after I was baptised in it - because of the error of free will. It always but always taints everything believed, preached, or taught that is doctrine. I just came to the point I could not take it any longer. For forty plus years now I have tried to go the SDA Church because they are the only Sabbath-keeping Church, and each and every time a tried, I was disappointed beyond measure because of this poison in the bread of life offered every Sabbath. So for forty plus years now I gave ear to the Reformed Proclamation, and have found rest for my soul, and rest for the Sabbath Day too, but not without much suffering. But I rejoice for the suffering, because through the suffering I am assured of God's love for me -- yes, for me! Thank you, Lord and Saviour!

 

Well said.

As our good brother Ed Edwards would say when affirming a point - "Preach it!"

in Christ,

Bob

 

It is true that OSAS believes that those who reject Jesus Christ as Savior could not have ever known Jesus Christ as Savior for the scriptures declare that being born of God is an act of God which gives the witness of the Holy Spirit joined with spirit. Two become one, a new creature is formed. Therefore the belief is upheld by God's Word. This new creature, having the permenant indwelment of the Holy Ghost (remember it is not just a coming along side, it is a "birth", a new creation) could never "stop trusting" in Jesus Christ as Eternal life. It would be impossible to "Stop believing" that which you have first hand , personal knowledge of is a truth.

The "doubts" can be found from both pov's. When the two men came to me and preached to me that I must get saved, they doubted that I was saved even though I gave them my testimony that I was indeed trusting in Jesus Christ for my salvation. They met with me on three different ocassions and each time tried to convince me that even though I "thought" i was saved I might not be. The reason they thought this of me was because of the lifestyle I was in at the time (sin). They felt I must not be saved or else I would be living righteously ( as seen by them) .

These two men are of the anti-OSAS side. They judge another's salvation by what they can see outwardly. But I thank God for sending them to me. By making me doubt my salvation it challenged me to search the scriptures to see if what they were telling me was true. I wanted to make sure I was saved and not deceiving myself. What I found was that I was indeed already saved (born of God) like I told them but I did realize I was living a life contrary to God's Word. I repented and have been growing in Christ ever since and these two men are my best friends. That was 10 years ago now.

I see those of the anti-OSAS side in my church witness to Christians that they must get saved. This is confusing to the backsliden Christian or the Christian like myself who had never been discipled after receiving Christ. Because i knew no bible they assumed I was lost even though I knew Jesus Christ. This is why it all boils down to faith alone in Jesus Christ. This is why God made salvation so simple that a child could understand it.

I was born-again in 1973. I was ten years old and heard Billy Graham preaching the Gospel on TV. My father was flipping through the channels and landed on it and we listened. That very night I got on my knees at the side of my bed and prayed God to forgive me my sins and bring Jesus into my life. I probably didn't even remember doing it the next day, I was ten remember.

From there I lived twenty three years of my life with only the Holy Spirit to guide me. I never went to church, was never discipled in any way, never read one page out of any bible. For 23 years I trusted in Christ for my salvation. Never even knew this debate over OSAS even existed. Never heard anyone say "you know you can stop believing in Jesus Christ" .

Let me tell you i had a very troubling life after I was saved. Not in an abusive way but in a self esteem kinda way. I felt rejected over and over and very unloved. The thought of killing myself would enter into my head, but you know what, Jesus was always right there saying "no, that is not going to solve anything". His love sustained me when I felt like dieing. I got very angry with Him, I felt He was not helping me. I had an ongoing relationship with Jesus CHrist for 23 years. I loved Him and I hated Him. But "stop believing" He is my God? The thought never crossed my mind. I now have learned how could it? I was made alive in Christ the day I was born-again. I could not escape His love even if I tried.

For 23 years I "kept believing" and I didn't even know it was being taught by you guys that one could "stop believing". I even turned my back on the Holy Spirit for the last ten of those 23 years. I was 23 years old when I decided that trying to live righteously was causing me boredom. All of my friends were going to bars and drinking it up. I never drank and I remained a virgin while those around me were having it all. ( Keep in mind I was never discipled, never read a bible, but I heard the ten commandments as a child and I knew what wrong doing was from the Holy Spirit within me) . I had heard preachers on tv declare what sin is, but I never heard any preaching on doctrines such as we discuss here.

I remember the first time I pulled into the parking lot of the local hot spot bar. My heart was pounding and the Spirit was pleading with me to turn away from this place. I vividly remember saying NO to the Spirit. I said I'm not having any life and I am going to go in. The Spirit shouted no and I shout yes, I'm going in. Did I "stop believing"? Not at all, was I having a discussion with someone I didn't believe in?

From there came my first encounter with fornication. Same senario played out with me and the Spirit. The Spirit shouting no and me trying to ignore Him. I was basically saying to Him to leave me alone, just let me live.

From there came adultery and spending most of my time on weekends in the bar. Even while I was living this life of sin I still prayed to God when things went wrong in my life or when I saw a need in another's life. I would cry out to God and ask Him why this and why that.

I got married eventually and after five years it was getting pretty bad and once again I found myself crying out to God, Why? I was at the end of my rope and I told God "I know you hate divorce but I am through unless you step in and do something". Two weeks later my wife who was not saved was invited to a play about Jesus' love and recieved Jesus Christ as her Savior. About the same time the Lord sent those two men I had told you about to witness to me.

For 23 years I lived a life apart from any of these known controversies over perserverance, OSAS, Sababth keeping, meat eating, stop believing, pants and music, etc, etc and I never once stopped believing that Jesus Christ was my salvation. It never crossed my mind. I talked with Him, I thanked Him, I argued with Him, I disobeyed Him. But "stop believing". That was a foriegn concept to me.

So now i have 33 years in as a child of God. And you want me to believe that after what i have witnessed in my heart with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit I should believe that I could lose my salvation by "stopping to believe"?

Not only do the scriptures declare OSAS but my life with Christ APART from any understanding of church doctrines has proven to me that once one is born of God they will always have God.

Do you see my testimony? I have a relationship with Jesus Christ. I had it long before I began studying any bible doctrines. This relationship has had all of the Father son relationships have here on earth. I have loved and I have hated. I have obeyed and I have rebelled. God is my Father and that cannot change. He has loved me, sustained me, disciplined me and restored me. All BECAUSE I am His, not because of anything I have done right.

Until I started fellowshipping with other churched Christians the thought never entered my heart or mind that I could ever "stop believing" Jesus is my God. ANd now after all He has brought me through should I doubt my eternal destiney?

33 years and maybe next year I will choose to not believe? I cannot ever choose such a thing. I became His in 1973 by the will of God. I am eternally secure in Christ. I can only fail if Christ fails.

How did I possibly survive the fatal "stop believing" you speak of for 23 years without any knowledge of church or bible, with only the Holy Spirit in me? Why didn't even the thought of "stop believing" enter into my mind or heart in 23 years with some pretty low times? Even in my flat out disobedience He was still there inside me, still working, still carrying on a conversation with me. He watched me wallow in the mud until I had enough misery to cry out and then He brushed me off and set my path straight once again.

There is no possible way I could embrace the "stop believing" doctrine. To do so would be to reject the very life I have lived with Christ. I have seen the truth of OSAS played out in my own life and I have seen the truth of OSAS written throughout the scriptures. I understand the opponants to this assurance of salvation do not like the way it is stated, but that does not make it any less biblically true. OSAS is assurance of salvation.

God bless!:thumbs:

 

You need to attach these points with the scriptures they speak of if we are to debate them.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

I agree it is not true. I can't speak for all OSAS Christians but I never thought such.

Not believing in OSAS does not change one's personal assurances they may embrace from the scriptures. Assurance comes from maturity in Christ.

I would wager that you personally know in your own heart that you would never stop believing in Christ, even if you were beaten, stoned and threatened with crucifixion. Yet you believe it is possible for others, just not yourself? Just a thought, be honest!

I have 33 years in (ALL 33 by the grace of God, zero self). How many do you have?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

Steaver
"Assurance comes from maturity in Christ."

GE

One. By grace through faith - the Holy Spirit its Agent solely and overriding and overcoming.

Two. From day one to and through the days of maturing

Three. By the unbelievably helpful irony of free will's blind blundering and hoarse wuthering noise

 

Re:OSAS

I like to use Matthew 7:24-27. Jesus states that those who hear these words of Mine and doeth them, is like one who built their house upon a rock...Jesus is that Rock. He then says those that hearth these words of Mine and doeth them not, is like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand. There is a MAJOR difference in where we build our faith. If we build our house(faith, trust, hope, life, etc.) on Him, we will never fall. Those that build their beliefs on themselves, will never stand. If you are saved by God's grace, you will withstand the "wiles" of the devil. It's when someone looks off that they get into trouble. Trust in God, and He will lead us home!! Glory!!

Willis

 

Steaver writes:
"It is true that OSAS believes that those who reject Jesus Christ as Savior could not have ever known Jesus Christ as Savior for the scriptures declare that being born of God is an act of God which gives the witness of the Holy Spirit joined with spirit. Two become one, a new creature is formed. Therefore the belief is upheld by God's Word. This new creature, having the permenant indwelment of the Holy Ghost (remember it is not just a coming along side, it is a "birth", a new creation) could never "stop trusting" in Jesus Christ as Eternal life. It would be impossible to "Stop believing" that which you have first hand , personal knowledge of is a truth. "

drfuss: "Could never stop trusting christ"? "Impossible to stop believing"?

Could you give me a chapter and verse that actrually says that? Not one that is only interpreted to say that, but one that actually says it.

steaver writes:
"There is no possible way I could embrace the "stop believing" doctrine. To do so would be to reject the very life I have lived with Christ. I have seen the truth of OSAS played out in my own life and I have seen the truth of OSAS written throughout the scriptures. I understand the opponants to this assurance of salvation do not like the way it is stated, but that does not make it any less biblically true. OSAS is assurance of salvation."

drfuss: Salvation comes by continuing to trust in Christ, not in a doctrine. I think trusting in a doctrine is trusting in an interpretation of scripture that can be interpreted differently by others.

steaver writes:
"I would wager that you personally know in your own heart that you would never stop believing in Christ, even if you were beaten, stoned and threatened with crucifixion. Yet you believe it is possible for others, just not yourself? Just a thought, be honest!"

drfuss: You are correct, but neither my experience nor your experience changes what the scripture says.


steaver writes:
"I have 33 years in (ALL 33 by the grace of God, zero self). How many do you have?"

drfuss: Not that it makes a bit of difference, but I have 55 years of continuing to trust in Christ. But that doesn't change scripture that says a Christian can stop trusting in Christ.

 

As was posted here --

 

From the previous page -

A link disproving OSAS from scripture alone. There we see actual Bible examples of failure to remain in Christ.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1115869#post1115869

Hard to refute those scriptures friends.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Perseverance vs OSAS -

Here the question is asked
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1111074#post1111074

And following that post the texts are listed --

And the question is specifically -- are the texts listed warning about perseverance in the form of "beware that you remember to get one day older each day that you live" -- i.e. doing that which will always happen anyway?

So far no one has been able to address the question in context of the texts listed. But a few brave souls did post to the point that if you IGNORE the texts listed and just look at OTHER texts when speaking to perseverance you might be able to get to the "age every day" form of Perseverance and OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Is there a verse that actually says God is three persons in One God?

Amen! :thumbs:

Amen again! :thumbs:

55 years. So far you have 55 years of OSAS. That's a pretty good testimony to the power of God to keep you saved. Unless of course you want to take the glory.

Here is the huge difference between my view and yours. You believe that you are saved by YOU continuing to trust in Christ. I believe I am saved by the power of God which keeps me continuing to trust in Christ.

One is "self" and the other is "God".

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

If I am not mistaken someone quoted a text to support OSAS...

Ok then here goes --

Post 246 shows why it is that OSAS can never survive the full test of scripture.

Many if not all of us accept the Eph 2:8-10 statement on being saved by grace through faith.

But some seek to do it in a kind of Bible-snipping way where they excuse themselves from reading or "noticing" how the following NT text debunk OSAS AS if you really can turn Eph 2 into an "either-or" fallacy against the rest of scripture.

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.




24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


Warnging about Forgiveness revoked – OR God reminding himself that He needs to remember to make us “forgiving” if He wants us saved.


Matt 18
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035489&postcount=59
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035498&postcount=64
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035503&postcount=67

Matt 18 <[b]Forgiveness Revoked!>
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
[/quote]


TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or it could be construed as God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?


--------------------------------------
Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come

Quote:
Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant
Quote:
by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?





1Timothy 3:1-6

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

Yet here we can “CLEARLY” see that the reason a bishop is not to be a new convert is because he can “FALL” into the very same condemnation of the devil. Now I ask you; how can a convert fall into the same condemnation of the devil and still be on the road to heaven? He can’t.

Question was posed by Ken at
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1056007&postcount=79

 

Actually one is derided as IF it were "Self".


1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

Quote:
drfuss: "Could never stop trusting christ"? "Impossible to stop believing"?

Could you give me a chapter and verse that actrually says that? Not one that is only interpreted to say that, but one that actually says it.

Steaver writes:
"Is there a verse that actually says God is three persons in One God?"

drfuss: So you couldn't find a verse that says a Christian cannot stop trusting Christ. Don't feel bad, the Baptist preachers in the Baptist only section could not find one either.




Quote:
drfuss: Not that it makes a bit of difference, but I have 55 years of continuing to trust in Christ. But that doesn't change scripture that says a Christian can stop trusting in Christ.

steaver writes:
"55 years. So far you have 55 years of OSAS. That's a pretty good testimony to the power of God to keep you saved. Unless of course you want to take the glory."

drfuss: Yes, it is a testimony to the power of God that I continue to be saved. But that has nothing to do with OSAS. The OSAS question is "can a Christian stop trusting Christ?"or "Can a christian choose to forfiet his salvation by deciding to stop trusting Christ?. I chose not to stop trusting Christ: I heeded the warnings in scriptures on this issue. God provided me the power to be kept; and I chose to continue trusting in Christ. Praise the Lord for the power He provides to be saved and to continue trusting in Him.



steaver writes:
"Here is the huge difference between my view and yours. You believe that you are saved by YOU continuing to trust in Christ. I believe I am saved by the power of God which keeps me continuing to trust in Christ.


drfuss: Wrong. I am saved by the power of God Who also provides the power to continue trusting in Christ. God also provides me the option to stop trusting in Christ if I desire. God is polite; He does not force Himself on anyone.

It sounds to me like you believe that after you except Christ, you have no option to stop trusting Christ. Do you believe you had an option when you first acceptrd Christ?

steaver writes:
"One is "self" and the other is "God"."

drfuss: This is totally false. OSAS Christians have been misrepresenting what non-OSAS Christian believe for many years in both preaching and writing. So I can understand why you believe that false information.

Both are of God. Neither is of self.

drfuss: The question is: Does God also provide us the option of stopping trusting in Christ? If not, then He has taken away our freewill and, in effect, we become robots.

 

So then you would be among those who take the Matt 18 topic of "Forgiveness revoked" as an example of the real danger and warning about losing salvation?

 

Steaver
"Here is the huge difference between my view and yours. You believe that you are saved by YOU continuing to trust in Christ. I believe I am saved by the power of God which keeps me continuing to trust in Christ.

One is "self" and the other is "God".

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

GE

Amen! Thank you Steaver. It is good to start my day with this!
To believe this doctrine - or rather Divine Truth - is like believing in God. No one can believe in God but God making the man believe in Him.

 

drfuss:
I am saved by the power of God Who also provides the power to continue trusting in Christ.

GE
Correct

drfuss:
God also provides me the option to stop trusting in Christ if I desire.

GE
Wrong, false, impolite. The clay has a mouthfull to the potter?
But show the Scripture! Just one?

drfuss
God is polite; He does not force Himself on anyone.

GE
It seems you haven't had to do with the power and forsce of God's Grace.

drfuss
It sounds to me like you believe that after you except Christ, you have no option to stop trusting Christ.

GE
One has no option. You answered yourself, ... drfuss: Do you believe you had an option when you first accepted Christ?

GE
A fetus decides he shall not grow? An Embrio can still refuse a sperm, maybe? Yet less resistence has the soul whom God decided to bring to life. Adam when just clay still told God, Keep away your breath from me?

drfuss
steaver writes: "One is "self" and the other is "God"." drfuss: This is totally false. .... Both are of God. Neither is of self.

GE
Now I have never heard Steaver deny what you say. But you, while saying deny your own saying.