OSAS is only a problem for people who don't trust God

I can't take you to the text right now but I remember reading from Arminius in the past and even according to him if one could lose his salvation( he describes how that would happen ,it is very technical) he/she would have to know enough about theology to know what they were doing and would have to be very deliberate about it. So in any event bless God at least He makes it difficult for us to lose our salvation. We are not to smart or stalwart.:godisgood:

 

Forgive us our debts

Jesus' words in Matthew 18 are not conditions that need to be met in order to be forgiven nor are they required after salvation to maintain our forgiveness. Jesus was teaching here in the OT to Jews who were very sure of their righteousness. The law had been theirs for hundreds of years trying to get them to see their need of a Savior. Like his teaching in the Sermon on the mount he was not giving them new laws to live by, rather he was giving them a glaring way for them to see their sin.
In Romans 2 Paul clearly explains that both Jews and Gentiles would receive their just punishment. The Jews had the law and the Gentiles had their consciences convisting them day after day. These words were helping them see the sin that was within them that they were working so hard to cover up. Jesus told them that they had washed up the outside of the cup, but the inside was still filthy. These types of teaching were to help them see it.
Following Pauls teaching in Romans shows as that "all have sinned" and that there was only one way to be freed from the "law of sin and death".

 

Kind of a non-comment wouldn't you say?

Nothing in the parable sounds like "you bad slave you should have forgiven your fellow slave enough times so that eventually I would forgive you -- your massive debt owed to me after watching how it was done by your continually forgiving others".

So it is hard to understand what point you are addressing with that comment. Did someone else besides the OSAS group start inserting stuff into Matt 18??

I see so we can ignore the part IN the text where Christ tells us that the slave WAS fully forgiven but failed to forgive others AS HE HAD already been forgiven -- so his original debt was returned to him (i.e. forgiveness revoked) -- ?? Just ignore that inconvenient detail?

Are you saying that your NT does not have 27 books in it? This is Matt 18 after all. The book of Matt was written after the cross and in fact is one of the 4 GOSPELS.

Are you saying we should ignore the words of Christ found there? They don't apply? Bad teaching if it is accepted today?

sounds pretty creative on your part if that is where you are going.

True - he was showing them the true intent of the law AS IT WAS pre-cross - not breaking it, not abolishing, but clarifying it's far-reaching scope.


In Romans 2 Paul clearly explains that both Jews and Gentiles would receive their just punishment AND their Just reward "to the Jew first AND ALSO to the gentile".

(It is funny how a lot of people like to pretend that only the failing scenario is presented by Paul in Romans 2)

in Christ,

Bob

 

My comment as you know was not about when Matthew was written. I said that Jesus was TEACHING in the OT, that is, during the old covenant. You used the term sllicing and dicing in one of your other posts to accuse me of deceitfully handling the word of God, and I assume you think the same here. If you are not willing to see the break between the old and the new, which I know you don't, you will get no where in understanding the Gospel.

We are not to ignore the words of Christ here any more than we are to ignore the book of Leviticus. It is not bad teaching, rather it is the best teaching in order to get people to see their sin.

Do you really believe that your forgivenss is based on your accomplishing the following verse from the parable?
Matthew 18:35
"So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

That isn't good news to me or anybody else.

Amen about ignoring the words in Romans 2! Let's look at them.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James teaches the same thing.

Paul is teaching that you can get eternal life by keeping the law. Is that really what you want to do? I will take the slicing (and no dicing) that Paul teaches.:laugh:
Col. 2
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And:
Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Quote by Bob Ryan
"True - he was showing them the true intent of the law AS IT WAS pre-cross - not breaking it, not abolishing, but clarifying it's far-reaching scope."

I agree. The Jews were working so hard at keeping the law and ignoring Christ because they had convinced themselves they were keeping the law which they weren't. So he extended it, clarified it, and made it impossible for any HONEST person feel justified by.

The Gospel does not abolish the law it. It just kills us so we are free from it.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
I am crucified with Christ! God says so.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The deeds of the body will not be changed by keeping the law. Never have, never will. It is through the Spirit that we can be free from sin and do righteousness. That is the Gospel that Paul was not ashamed of. It is when we go back to the letter (the law) that we are beguiled of our reward of having the Spirit lead us. Christians want the Ten Commandments posted every where so our country will be Godly again? Didn't work for the Jews and won't for us either. I just hope it will bring them all to Christ.

Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

Sounds like "WHEN" comment to me-- you argue that Matthew's account of the pre-cross teaching of Christ should be ignored today -- other than a occurious historic factual account not of doctrinal worth - not to be followed as if "authorotative" today.

In fact I believe you think that Christ's teachings today would be doctrinally wrong -- if accepted as anything but a bit of information regarding old historic times.

It appears that in your view the gospel Christ taught was "another gospel" not the one whose commands we follow today.

Clearly you recast the teaching of Christ into "another gospel" and in fact you clearly argue above from "the very quote of Christ" that we should not be following such instruction as if it applied to us!!

But you fail in a number of areas.

As Mathew notes when Christ left (Matt 28) Christ's command was that Mathew and others folloiwing Christ "Teach them ALL that I commanded you" and this Matthew does by writing the book of Matthew AFTER the cross that SHOWS the teaching of Christ.

Yet this is the very scripture you argue is of no value other than historic data -- not actually doctrinal teaching for us to follow today!

Another gospel!

A slice and dice of scripture.

When it comes to the 39 books of the OT and the 4 gospels for doctrine you appear to really say "I don't trustit"

Clearly you are one who does NOT find the Gospel in the teahing of Christ or in the scriptures used in Acts 17:11 to make the Gospel arguments of the NT saints!

How sad.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Kind of a snippet approach to Romans 2 -- but notice that in vs 13 the principle is "stated" then in vs 14-16 the SUCCEEDING example is given!

After giving a large number of succeeding examples (and also of failing ones) Paul concludes with


Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

in Christ,

Bob

 

My precisely - Christ showed them that the Bible based scripture approved view of the law did NOT fit their man-made traditions.

Christ did not show them that scripture was 'insufficient" but rather that it was accurate and man-made-tradition was "insufficient".

Yet today many take the instruction from Christ condemning the words and traditions of "men" in the gospels and try to bend that as a condemnation of scripture - God's Word as if GOD is the one that authored the Jewish errors, fables, doctrinal flaws and positions that He was correcting! Precross!

In Romans 7 Paul argues "the Law is spiritual... but I am sinful" Paul argues "the Law is Holy Just and Good" and in Romans 3 and in Gal3 Paul argues that it DEFINES sin.

In Romans 3:31 "Do we then make VOID the law by our faith? God forbid in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

In Romans 6 we are told NOT to sin for we are slaves of the one we serve?

The law is continually held up by Paul - and the "condemnation of the law" in that it accurately points out our sin - is addressed in Christ so that we who have the law written in the heart are not still condemned to the second death.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Osas

I think circumcision is worth a pile of manure. So is all the righteousness that is in the law.

Do you ever trim your beard? Do your SDA farmer friends leave their soybeans and corn in the corners of their fields? Do you get flack from the animal rights people for all the killing you are doing? What about the death penalty for those who curse their mom and dad? Any preachers with cataracts in the SDA church?
Any SDA bankers out there? I would like to take a loan out from them :laugh: .

Surely you don't observe ALL these. Yet you call me the slicer and dicer.

I will take Christ alone with Paul "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" Phil 3:9

Here is what Paul thought of those preaching the law:

Phil 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

 

your argument is of the form "yes of course I ignore scripture doesn't everyone?".

Surely you have another option.

 

Osas

Bob,

Please explain how your not doing all of the law is not "ignoring" scripture.

 

Osas

Quote from Bob Ryan
"In fact I believe you think that Christ's teachings today would be doctrinally wrong -- if accepted as anything but a bit of information regarding old historic times.
It appears that in your view the gospel Christ taught was "another gospel" not the one whose commands we follow today."

You are right in saying that I do not think Jesus' purpose was to give us a bunch of new laws to live by. For example, the rich young ruler would not have been saved by going off and giving all of his money away. Nor are we to pluck out our eye if it causes us to stumble. Do you only pray in your closet? How about making plans for tomorrow? I actually know people that try to live by these, except the eye plucking one:laugh: .

There was obviously a somthing given to Paul after the road to Damascus according to the following scriptures. It had been hidden. I say, with Paul, that it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What do you think it was and when did it start? It was hidden from ages (that is time). Not even the prophets knew about it.

Col 1: 25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:"

Similarly:
Eph. 1:9 "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"

 

One simple question:

Paul says we are new creatures in Christ, seated with Christ in the heavenlies.

Yet, at any moment we can become uncreated in Christ and unseated from Christ in the heavenlies?

Also at any moment we might fall back into a state of not being able to refer to God intimately a Abba Father (Daddy)?

Interestingly, we may have some estrangement from our earthly parents by our acts, theirs, or mutually, yet our relational connection to them is still, our parents.

If we take this earthly, man centered principle, and give God credit for this principle, then we have this up/down, yeah/nay, relationship with God the Father when we go on a rebellious, fleshly rant, of life, after once contritely believing in Christ as our Saviour, and receiving His life, forgiveness, and eternal relationship of our God.

If our relationship with God hinges on a continuing, "A+" report card, at every interval of life as a Christian, we are a most unfortunate being by far.

To literally be yanked out of our New Creature in Christ standing by back sliding, or carnally falling off the wagon of living out a wholesome, biblical life, at every breathing moment, is to be most pitied.

What is the bain of the non-Christian world? We have unperfect parents and world, who often accept or refuse us based on performance standards. One day we are loved and patted on the head for cleaning our room, the next day your treated as a "Persona Non Grata" because you didn't eat your Lima beans.".

Christ's acceptance is based on "identy", or birthright, not on how high we can jump, or how many souls we can bring the gospel to, how much we serve in the church, in our life time.

When Paul says, "In Christ", he means, "In Christ". When your saved, God places you "In Christ". Your life is no longer your own, but Christ's/God's property. Because of this new identity.birthright, we are now inheritors of God's riches in Glory. We have been given the H.S. as a Guarantor, of that pact, God has done. We now have in our souls, "mind, will, emotions", the mighty Counselor, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, that gentlemanly guides us, not in an overwhelming intrusive way, but in a way that instills interest, and seeking of a stronger, and stronger walk or relationship with God through Christ. We now have an advocate that pleads our positional/actual standing in Him/Christ before the Father, as the enemy of our souls pleads against our standing before the Father, for every non-biblical deed or thought we possess or exercise.

God came in in the Flesh to identify with humanity, yet to also end this acceptance/performance based approach to God that man has unscripturally bought into. To lose one's new birth is to not ever have had that new birth. As we cannot climb back into our mother's womb and be reborn, so we cannot hop in and out of relationship with God, through the blood, and Cross of Christ.

If we are saved, we have been crucified, buried, and raised up with Christ (Galatians 2:20), and the old Adamic life that we possessed is now buried at the Cross, and the new life we live is the the new Adamic life of Christ. To lose one's salvation is to live tentatively, and in a state of anxious, anxiety, that at any given moment, one might falter and lose one's God given birthright. That is the most blasphemous definition of God's steadfast love, and patience, that waits at the "portals" and aggressiving calls and pursues His beloved ones.

To accept the notion that a trully Born Again believer can lose one's salvation is to make a mockery of the work of Christ, and to place one's human intellect above God's omnipotence, and Forgiving nature.

To lose one's salavation and gain it back if possible is to live the existence of a human "yo yo". A life of total, apprehensive, instability, that must be governed with Pharasitical practices of "works" based salvation.

It reminds me of the servant/slave that had the one talent. Why didn't that servant/slave double that talent's value, as the others did with their talents? First of all this "one talent" servant saw his master as hard, unforgiving, exacting and scarey master. Many of us grew up with imperfect parents not unlike how this servant perceived his master. We had to be on the top of our "game" as kids to please them, or if we faltered, it was "limbo" time in our relationship with them. That's not as God revealed Himself in the person of Christ! That's imperfect, humanity. Imperfect parental modeling, yet God is not imperfect, and says that He will never foresake or leave us.

Some say that's fine, but we can leave Him. That "bolder dash"! Once you are a new Creature in Christ, you can have your fleshly times as His child as well as your abiding times. Those fleshing times could last days, months, or years, but God still does the "holding". We don't hold onto God! God holds onto us. He certainly gets disappointed with us, but He doesn't let go of us, or quit loving us. He's patient; and ever-waiting for us to get back into the "fold". In fact He will even seek us out and bring us back in a myriad of ways in this time bound, earthly life of ours. We can refuse to accept his overtures of love, but if there was a time in our lives when we believed with our hearts in the scripturally based Christ and His work at Calvary in our place, the scripture says that He is most gracious and has accepted us as His children. We have been adopted. Adoption is as strong as biological birth. It is irrevocable! Whe God adopts, it's a done deed and deal!

Salvation is only the beginning. Now comes the process of sanctification, or being set-apart from the world in our outward life and inward life as it conforms slowly to the nature of God through Christ. For some of us, the sanctification goes easier as some of us are more compliant. For others of us, we fight it all the way. Does God reject the fighters of His Will and love the compliant more? Never!

For Grace levels the playing field between the "goodie two shoes" and the "rabble rouser"( Remember the Prodigal son?). Romans 3:23 says it all............None, no not one has earned their salvation by deeds. God saves. None of us have anything to brag about.

This means that gross sinners or those whose sins seem so very visible and apparent to all, have access to the throne of God through Jesus Christ ( Zacheus), as readily as the sinner who transgressed God's Laws in the mind and through subtle, less noticeable means ( Obedient, rich young man who travailed at giving up his possessions to follow Jesus.).

I've personally met folks who were saved as homosexuals, yet were not freed from the temptation of Homosexuality just because they became saved. It took time for God to pare away the layers upon layers of unGodly life ( skewed, unbiblical way of life) that hindered a mature, growing relationship with God. Yet, God is faithful, and works in gentlemanly cooperation with our human wills, to remove those besetting obstacles from our lives that hinder our intimacy with God. We cooperate via Romans 12:1-3, but renewing our minds with truth from God to replace the old Adamic programming that's still in our souls, even though the old Adamic nature is or proclivity to sin is gone. This also is the way to resist temptation and sin, as our unredeemed flesh or earthly bodies still allows the power of sin it's distasteful access to our souls.

Christians sin, and often reap terrible consequences that negatively affect their testimony and usefulness as God would have intended, but God doesn't discard them to a "lost persons" refuse pile. Human will, with freedom to choose, must work in conjunction with God's truth and will, in order for all Christian soul's to reap benefit, in the form of usefulness to the kingdom and personal peace and security to be realized.

When saved, you are given a brand new "birthright". Birthrights are not revokable when your behaviour goes wacky and skewed through sins temptation via your unredemmed flesh. You just relinquish a lot of blessings and priveledges until you get your moorings back through God's patient, unending grace. Sadly some Christians live most of their lives as though they are pagans and unsaved, as they fail to exercise their freedom to "choose" to seek after their Creator's provision of restoration.

No, God doesn't hold a bar or measuring stick in front of His children. Christ is their advocate, yet God willingly works and strives with His children to perfect what is good, and eliminate what is a hindrance. At no time does He discard a single soul that is covered or appropriated His Son's life.

 

Eightball,

Excellent understanding of God's Word my friend! :thumbs:

I began a thread on Obab, asking the question can one become un-born? Those in the insecurity camp have not attempted to answer yet.

God Bless! :wavey:

 

And so Luke 3 "Adam the son of God" - shows Adam (and our) family relationship to God and now "must be uncreated" to lose it argument such as you are proposing is ever allowed in scripture. For such arguments are not Bible quotes.

One could just as easily quote "God is love.. and to burn your child in fire is not loving how much more so for a loving God... God has to first become ungod and unlove to ever burn anyone".

While it is true that "God is love" is the bible part of that argument - going to the "unborn" "unchild" "ungod" "unlove" arguments are merely exposing the glaring point that they are never found in scripture in the form "you must be unborn to be lost".

In fact what we DO find is Matt 18 "Forgveness revoked".

What we do find is Gal 5 "severed from Christ, Fallen from Grace".

What we do find is "removed from Christ and burned in fire" John 15.

What we do find is "You should Fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you ... you STAND only by your FAITH... He is able to graft THEM in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in their Unbelief". Romans 11.

Basically the NT argues the very opposite of your point above.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob:

Where's your rest and peace in God? This form of salvation or relationship in God seems so tentative and on constant verge of calamity, if you don't "tow" the line with God. Is that how Jesus revealed Himself to us in the N.T.? I'd rather cease my striving to make the mark that Jesus finished at Calvary, and just allow God to be Lord in my life.

Personally, I'll rest in God's provision, for when I am weak, He is indeed strong.". When I falter and give in to temptation and sin, I am still living in His grace (unmertited favor). I have estranged myself from God in my soul(mind, will, and emotions), but not positionally, as I have brought separation by my carnality or fleshly walk, and can not have communion with His Spirit. God doesn not cease to be my Father, yet I have built a spiritual wall by my abiding in sin, and not His righteousness. If I prodigalize my life, my Father still beckons patiently, and continues to love me. Actually the son that stayed home had more serious problems than the Prodigal, for he thought he had hit the mark with his father by being ever so obedient and complacent, yet that stay-at-home son lacked forgiveness, compassion, and a contrite heart. The stay at home son was living that tentative life of obedience, thinking that just trying to be good was the real bull's eye to having a relationship with dear old dad. In essence that "goodie" son was living in constant fear of missing the mark, and as a result didn't understand a true loving relationship with his dad. He had an unhealthy fear of his dad, not unlike the servant given the one talent. That servant had the freedom to use that talent and multiply it, but instead hid it out of fear of his master. He saw and only perceived his master as a hard task master who would punish at the first mis-step. The Christian who lives believing that their relationship with God is tentative and based on their performance, is also living in unhealthy and unbiblical fear of God. How can peace, and rest result from this kind of relationship. It all hinges on performance based acceptance. That's human derived love, and is the antithesis of God's love.

Did Abraham fall in and out of righteousness with God, when he lied about his wife being his sister? Did Jacob become unrighteous when he fooled Esau out of his birthright. God just reckoned this men, righteous by his word, not by their up and down deeds before Him. God sees the heart of man, and knows if a man's heart is good or not. God does not revoke His adoption of His children, or this would make a mockery of His son's crucifixion, burial, and ressurrection. Righteousness is not earned, it's given by God. God sees the beginning and end of a man's earthly life. So His bestowing of righteousness is a result of seeing the whole or entire picture of our lives. We have nothing to brag about.

Knowing or believing that I could lose my salvation is not akin to taking Jesus's light yoke, but is to receive a heavier yoke than one can humanly bare.

Ever wonder about the verse of the believers that continue in sin, and enter the Kingdom as through fire. Their works are but wood, hay, and stubble? How about the verse where God can and will take believers home early, who continue to sin and bring dissapointment and shame to Christ's sacrifice, and don't seem to try to appropriate His truths and experience victory and His glorification? Doesn't seem to confirm a lost relationship. There will be rewards of various degrees.

We must distinguish first of all between those who have tasted God's goodness, and those who have progressed beyond that point, and received salvation. Remember that God allows rain to come down on the thirsty crops of the evil as well as the righteous man. Yet, one is saved and the other is separated from God.

God touches so many lives, and enlightens and excites so much in so many, yet so many of those don't proceed to the Cross, and give their lives to Christ in believing faith, as their Lord and Saviour.

When we look back on our lives if we've been saved for sometime, it becomes quite apparent or discerned, that there are many points in our pre-salvation days where we can remember God moving in our lives, or things that happened that were His loving touch in moving and drawing us to Him, yet we hadn't crossed over yet. Some proceeded ahead seeking, and others turned-about. Why? I don't know.

Hebrews is so often used as the example of losing salvation, yet Appollos or Paul simply was showing that many were enlightened or given inklings and blessings of God's calling in their lives, but by their own human wills, they never took or chose to believe all the way in Christ as their total provision for life.

The Zacheus's of the world are the adopted sons of God, through Jesus Christ's life.

To live such a tentative existence as a believer, having to watch, every step of one's life in fear of loss of relationship with their Creator, is horrific, and is the antithesis of peace that surpasses all understanding.

It is like mixing oil and water, darkness and light, Spirit and flesh.

Works, and legalism will ensue from such tentative, unbiblical, provisions, allegedly from God.



Many were enlightened, but not saved. Hebrews is so mis understood, and taken out of context.

 

So when Christ said "go and teach them all that I commanded you" Matt 28 -- again a joke?

And you appear to agree that "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" pre-cross was in fact the Word of God - the Commandments as recorded in God's Word - pre-cross teaching to pre-cross saints.

As Paul says "The gospel was preached to us JUST AS IT WAS TO THEM ALSO" Heb 4:1.

As Paul says of Abraham "the Gospe was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7.

As Paul says regarding the Gospel "There is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9.

You have found a "condemn the Law of God" solution that as you point out is "not" the OT solution -- for it is "another Gospel".

Your "two gospel solution" is condemned by Paul if we read his writings carefully.

Paul claims it was "the Good News was preached to us JUST as it was to them also" Heb 4:1.

Peter says that the teaching of Christ was known to the OT saints including "the Sufferings of Christ AND The Glories to follow"

So while it is true that "more detail" is given as time goes by it is not true that they did not even have the Gospel as you seem to suppose and worse that they had "another Gospel" as you seem to think.

in Christ,

Bob

 

My arguments rests in accepting the details of the texts I have given EVEN if they "do not sound like peace and safety" at all times no matter what rebellion enters the heart over time.

Your response "seems" to be that if we accept these NT texts as they are stated above - we can have no peace with God.

By contrast in Romans 8:16 we ARE told how to have peace with God -- it is in daily walking WITH God and putting to death the deeds of the flesh for THEN and only THEN does God the Holy Spirit "bear witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God".

Christ said "Peace I give to you my peace I leave with you" John 14.

In Phil 3 we are told to keep our minds fixed on things above and "The Peace of God will guard your heart and mind" but there is no "peace of God" for those who do not fix their minds on things above and who do not have that living walk with Christ.

In fact in 1John 2 John says that they lie who do not "WALK as Christ WALKED" and yet claim to know Christ.

That means that if you fail to persevere ten years from today you are not walking with Christ you are not one who at that time knows Christ as you know Him today.

The response you give does not deal with the NT texts shown to disprove your position. All it does is appeal to those who along with your position have already agreed NOT to pay attention to that part of scripture and ask them to "go back to sleep".

How can you possibly be satisified with such a position??

in Christ,

Bob

 

I think this discussion between Matt and Sam is very succinct.

http://www.carm.org/dialogues/lose_salvation.htm

Can you lose your salvation?

This chat developed out of a conversation with a pastor regarding basic Christian theology. We ended up talking about whether or not you can lose your salvation. Let's pick it up well into the talk.


Matt: Can we lose our salvation?
Sam: I believe we can
Matt: What must you do to keep it then?
Sam: Believe.
Matt: Phil. 1:29 says that God grants that we believe. John 1:12 we are born again NOT of our own wills. John 6:28-29 our believing is God's work. So... it is up to God then, it would seem.
Sam: That is true and Hebrews say that if we willing sin after knowing the truth we no longer have an intercessor in heaven
Matt: Have you ever sinned willfully after being a Christian?
Sam: I am not speaking of one sin, I am speaking of turning away from God.
Matt: That isn't what Heb. 10:26 says. But, if you can lose your salvation, then what do you do with John 10:28 where Jesus says he gives eternal life and the sheep will NEVER perish? And also 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us." You are teaching that we keep our salvation by works.
Sam: What about those who endure to the end will be saved
Matt: That is Matt. 24:13. That is speaking of the end times tribulation era... not of justification. If you can lose your salvation, then what do you do with John 10:28 where Jesus says He gives eternal life and the sheep will NEVER perish? If you can lose it then Jesus should have said, "and they may perish..." or "they CAN perish." But he said, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH. So, will they never perish? Or can they?
Sam: Believing is a present tense word and you must believe till the end
Matt: Yes. But can you answer the questions above?
Sam: And belief requires a response
Matt: Can you answer the question regarding John 10:28?
Sam: I believe we are God's sheep if we follow him.
Matt: Wrong. We follow him BECAUSE we are His sheep. You have it wrong. This is a common error in Christianity in America. It amounts to salvation by works.Sam: He says his sheep know his voice and follow
Matt: Yes...and they will NEVER PERISH, right?
Sam: There are 2 schools of thought on this subject and I am not Calvinistic. But I do not want to argue about it
Matt: You don't have to be calvinistic. Jesus said they will never perish. 1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us." If someone leaves the faith it is because they never were saved. We endure because we ARE saved...we don't become or stay saved by our works.
Sam: So you are saying that if someone accepts Jesus as his savior and feels the need to repent and follows Jesus for many years and then for some reason he turns a walks in darkness that in the end he is still forgiven.
Matt: I didn't say that. The Bible says in 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."
Sam: You are saying it is impossible for a true christen to turn
Matt: To turn??? Not sure what you mean.
Sam: Away form God, to reject him
Matt: No, a true Christian cannot. Here is why. 2 Cor. 5:17, "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."
Sam: I am saying that when we believe that we are justified and from that point on we walk with Jesus in belief and we walk each day we pick up our cross and continue walking with him
If we stop walking and turn from God and no longer trust in him as our savior then we will not enter heaven.
Matt: Right... because...1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us." THEY WOULD HAVE REMAINED if they were really Christians to begin with.
Matt: Now a question for you. Are you saying that the Spirit begins the work of salvation in us and that we work it out and complete it by remaining faithful? That IS what you are saying, that we get saved and keep it by the effort of our works, right? Check this out. Gal. 3:1-3, "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"
Sam: I would say that there are very few people who ever have lived that can say they did
Matt: You still have not answered John 10:28.
Sam: Your teaching is a new teaching
Matt: No. Jesus taught it. He said those with eternal life will NEVER PERISH. John 10:28, "and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." Well, will they perish or not? Jesus says those with eternal life will NEVER perish. I believe Him. Do you?



He stopped responding after this last statement.

I believe that a Christian can hold the position that you can lose your salvation. My only concern is that they do not fall into the error of trying to keep their salvation by their own works. This is very problematic since it moves away from salvation by grace.

 

Matt and Sam look like interesting people from that list. Carm on the other hand is loaded with problems for anyone who does not share the doctrinal views of the CARM administrators.

Envite Matt to join us for an actual open discussion of the topic.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I don't embrace or endorce this ministry, but I did find the intercourse of Matt and Sam very clearly presented, and not lacking in scriptural support.

In Christ, by His Might and to His Glory, Not Mine, Eightball.