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OSAS question? About repentance and stuff!! :0))

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Jan 11, 2007.

  1. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Repentence concerning a believer (or one saved) has nothing to do with their relationship to God but their fellowship with God.

    You did not have the power to save yourself, thereby you do not have the power to remove what you were powerless to even get!

    God in His power gave you eternal life and since He has the power to give it ONLY He has the power (authority) to remove it. - But He will not because of His word that it be eternal, it is a gift, and it is His work COMPLETED in you, among other things.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    4 point Calvinists DO make the argument of the OP for those who do NOT persevere being "saved anyway". In otherwords the UNBELIEVER who follows paganism is SAVED if at one time he did claim to follow Christ in the 4 point Calvinist model because they deny the Bible doctrine of "Perseverance" that both 3 Point Calvinists and 5 Point Calvinists accept. (And that Arminians accept in a correct Bible model not in a Calvinist model of retrot-deleted assurance).

    My point is that I am not the author of 4 Point Calvinism which is truely represented in the OP scenario. AND I am not the author of the OP that makes that point perfectly.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Tazman

    Tazman New Member

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    Are you talking about your initial salvation?
    No one can die for sins but Christ.

    But after we've made the choice to follow christ repenting of our minds and heart against God, we then must maintain that choice while following Him. All his promises are for those who overcome, not those who leave him. (for those people who leave Him, there are other scriptures)

    What is your take on Rev 3:5 (i just want to see how far you will go to make your doctrine work)
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Since Ed invites me to critique his response -- no need to ask twice sir.:laugh:

    The question perfectly addresses real 4-point Calvinism which is of the form "saved no matter what and that includes the unbeliever who ONCE believed".


    The question in the OP is not of the form "What about a saint that sometimes covets or is jealous sometimes or is struggling with a temper" -- the question is about very gross examples of "failing to persevere".



    That is a good way not to address issues related the 4 point Calvinist doctrine on "dumping the Bible teaching on perseverance".

    But that is the very issue the OP is addressing.

    Paul never writes tio anyone saying "you can not be tempted because you have nothing in your sinful nature that wants to sin". Nor does Paul say "you no longer have a sinful nature". Instead he describes the problem as WAR.

    He says we must put on the full armor of God such that "having done EVERYTHING -- stand firm" -- he lists action to be taken "That you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil" and win in the war "we STRUGGLE not against flesh and blood but against ..."

    And in his letters to the church he continually argues "BE DO DECEIVED" as in 1Cor 6 dealing with SIN in the church.

    Not "sin all you want because you are holy flesh" or anything remotely like that. (But this again is not the point of the OP discussion)

    In christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is a good foundational argument for 4 Point Calvinism's denial of the Bible teaching on Perseverance. The idea is nothing you did results in salvation and no amount of "failing to persevere" ten years from today "including unbelief and paganism" could ever make any other change in your salvation -- no change in any case either for Good or evil -- is based on "what you do" what you choose or whether you decide to continue in faith or completely dump it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I would wholeheartedly concur with what you state here. Our faith must be maintained to be found in the last day as overcomers.
     
  7. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    The answers that Ryan and Claudia give to questions are appalling. It is difficult to imagine more grievous distortions of scripture. Why does anyone even respond to them?

    As to a couple of others, it is beyond imagination that you can believe that you or I must perservere or endure until the end in our own strength or through our own efforts. That is the epitomy of heresy.
     
    #47 DQuixote, Jan 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2007
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is not the same thing as actually looking at Dan 7 or Matt 7 or 2Cor 5 or even Romans 2 and SHOWING that you have a point to make.

    However you have registered your feelings about the matter perfectly.
     
    #48 BobRyan, Jan 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2007
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Inded there are no sweet kind loving "peace and safety" messages for those who decide against the Gospel and persevering IN the "obedience of the Gospel"

    But in 2Thess 1 we do find "fire and retribution" being vividly described as directed to those who "obey not the gospel".

    Probably something else that will not give XD a warm fuzzy feeling on this subject -- but then I did not write 2Thess 1.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: We all agree that no man saves himself. WE are all sinners and no amount of good can ever atone for the evil we have done. Just the same, where is the Scriptural evidence to support your last words which again stated,

    You are trying to establish a logical deduction from a premise that makes no logical sense or has any biblical support. We are warned repeatedly in Scripture of apostasy, falling away, and loosing our first estate. If it were not possible, why all the warnings?
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Why is it that you seem to read “cannot perish” into the words “should not perish?” In your estimation if I say that you ‘should not go to the store,’ is that one in the same with making that read, ‘cannot go to the store?’
     
  12. Tazman

    Tazman New Member

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    What's you take on Rev 3:5?

    Just curious.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Ed Edwards: //Now that I'm OSAS - how can I serve my Lord
    and Savior: Messiah Jesus best?//

    BobRyan: //That is a good way not to address issues
    related the 4 point Calvinist doctrine on "dumping
    the Bible teaching on perseverance".
    But that is the very issue the OP is addressing.//

    Ah, gig me cause I didn't answer the question :)
    Don't forget to mention there have been six active
    topics on the same subject in this forum alone.

    But hey :) I'm easy (not cheap, just easy) so
    feel free to construct all the strawmen you need and
    have discombulation frenzy with 'em.

    Anyway, i'm one heck of a three AND five point Calvinist
    kinda guy
     
  14. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    well I dont know, why? is this a trick question? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    My point is that what you are calling a strawman is real 4 point Calvinism.

    I admit that this is not the view of 3 and 5 point Calvinists that DO accept the Bible teaching on Perserance. But your claiming that I am coming up with a strawman makes it sound like I am the author of 4 point Calvinism when in fact Allen is making the perfect 4 Point Calvinist argument and he actually believes in it - whereas I am merely reporting the news:type:

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Who in the world ever said that one had to persevere in our own strength or through our own efforts? That is a complete fabrication of your own imagination. How do you get ‘in your own strength’ from ‘total dependence upon God?’ Was Paul speaking heresy when he stated, “I CAN DO All things THROUGH CHRIST which strengthens me.”?

    Can we find a clue to a victorious overcoming life through Paul’s words, “It is no longer I that live, but Christ that liveth through me.” ?
     
  17. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    "I counsel thee," He says, "to buy of Me . . . white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear." Rev. 3:18.

    By the wedding garment in the parable is represented the pure, spotless character which Christ's true followers will possess. To the church it is given "that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white," "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Eph. 5:27. The fine linen, says the Scripture, "is the righteousness of saints." Rev. 19:8. It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that through faith is imparted to all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.

    "He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us." "Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments." 1 John 3:24; 2:3. This is the genuine evidence of conversion. Whatever our profession, it amounts to nothing unless Christ is revealed in works of righteousness.

    "I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Rev. 20:11, 12.

    The end is near. To us the warning is given, "Take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares." Luke 21:34. Beware lest it find you unready. Take heed lest you be found at the King's feast without a wedding garment.
    "In such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." "Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." Matt. 24:44; Rev. 16:15.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DQuixote: //The answers that Ryan and Claudia give
    to questions are appalling. It is difficult to imagine more
    grievous distortions of scripture. Why does anyone
    even respond to them?//

    They are Brother & Sister in Christ. Who are you?
     
  19. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Hey thanks, Ed! I regard you just the same way...
     
  20. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    Tali, that question has been asked and answered a zillion times since about 30 a.d. The literature available for all sides of the argument is out there in abundance. Biblically, anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior receives him as Lord. No one in that category has any desire to keep on sinning. When we sin, we are quickened (made aware of it) by the Holy Spirit. We have grieved him. We are sickened that we resorted to sin in some strange effort to be "satisfied," so to speak. In your question you ask "CAN" we sin, the equivalent of "are we able" to sin. Of course we are able to sin, but the born-again Christian chooses not to. If an individual professes before others to be a Christian and then lives in, continues in, dwells in sin, without ever experiencing the pangs of guilt and grief, then we must question whether that person had a genuine salvation experience or whether he or she is not growing in Christ because of forsaking assembling, or other surrounding circumstances. If the latter, then the Christian brother or sister who becomes aware of that needs to encourage that one to receive the whole counsel of God. Offering a local non-denominational church, a local bible study group, and attending with that person, would be appropriate. At some point that person who remains in a sinful state either wakes up to the grief being caused, or is sincerely led to receive Christ as Savior and follow him as Lord. We Christians have no excuse for failing to witness to anyone who is not a follower of Christ, or who is struggling.
     
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