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  1. Lcrider618

    Lcrider618 New Member

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    Really torn with the idea of once saved always saved.
    I know There are difference of opinions and scripture verses to support either side of the argument. Don't really know what to do other than pray for God's understanding.
    Would love to hear from anyone that can show me scripture that says we are saved sealed by Christ and nothing will remove that sealed, Not even ourselves.
     
  2. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Lcrider, welcome to the Baptist Board. I hope you find it enjoyable and helpful.

    On the "once saved always saved" subject, I'd recommend that you ask your question in the Baptist Theology & Bible Study Forum.

    I should get a good number of responses there.
     
  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The topic of OSAS can go on forever on this board. As complicated as it may seem, a true child of God can be sure of his salvation based on a right understanding of God. The question to ask is whether God is a truth-teller or a liar. Consider the words of Jesus:

    John 6:37-40 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

    It is not possible for those whom the Father has given to the Son to be lost. To suggest otherwise is to question the veracity of God's word, i.e. to call God a liar.

    The real issue is separating false professors from true children of God. Those that supposedly fall away from the faith were never children of God in the first place. The Apostle John describes those who fall away (and never repent) this way:

    1 John 2:19 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

    The author of Hebrews describes the same type of false-professor:

    Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

    Those who have "once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift" are those who numbered themselves as one of the Elect. Jude describes them as:

    Jude 1:12-13 12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

    These "hidden reefs" enjoyed the blessings of the church and the fellowship of God's people for a season, but their true colors were finally seen for what they were. They were never true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. They were impostors.

    There is no way I can do justice to this topic in one post. I am sure others will fill in the blanks that I have missed.
     
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Welcome to Baptistboard,
    Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
    1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
    ( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
    2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
    ( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

    3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
    ( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
     
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Foundation found in this passage from Romans 8:

    31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can beiagainst us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.j 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,

    “For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
    we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

    37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    The basic question is resolved in understanding that absolutely nothing can remove salvation of those in whom God has claimed as His.
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I really dislike the expression Once saved, Always saved because it gives the impression that anyone who has made a profession of faith is thereby automatically saved for life. This is simply not true.

    @Iconoclast in post #4 has given an extract from the 1689 Baptist Confession of faith concerning The Perseverance of the Saints, and this is much better. Those who are born again of the Holy Spirit will certainly persevere to the end, but it is also necessary that they do (Matthew 7:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9; Galatians 5:21). If someone is not persevering in the faith for any length of time, how can he suppose that he is in the faith at all?

    There are certain proofs or evidences that one can apply to oneself (2 Corinthians 13:5) to see if one is really saved.
    Some of them may be found here: New Birth (9). Evidences of the New Birth
     
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  7. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I was born to my father. My fellowship with my father might strain, but I cannot change that I am born into the family, I cannot to retain sonship, It is not dependent on mt actions. It is secure.
    My part of the relationship needs constant attention
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    ‘Whoever does not practise righteousness is not of God’ (1John 3:10). It is usual for children to resemble their parents. If a child is born who bears no similarity whatever to its father, eyebrows tend to be raised, suspicions aroused and searching questions asked. So if God is righteous, is it not somewhat surprising if He has given new life to children who retain constant sin in their lives? May we not be a little suspicious of those who claim to be born of God but whose day-to-day existence is marked by carnality and self-indulgence?

    What does the Lord Jesus say about such people? "You are of your father, the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do" (John 8:44). Not that these words were not spoken to atheists or pagans or wiccans; they were spoken to religious folk who claimed to be worshipping Yahveh.
     
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    John 8 44 is spoken to the Pharisee in Jhn 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. He is talking the those that believe on Him.Jhn 8:31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed but back to the Pharisees in Jhn 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    Clearly He was speaking to the Pharisses in v44.

    The saved have able to become Sons of God , restore the relationship, The lost continue in condemnation, as is the Devil.
     
  10. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    A few things that convince me that saints of God are preserved by the Grace of God are:
     
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  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Amen to all that! :)
    But we should also add
    The Holiness of God ( 1 Peter 1:16; Hebrews 10:16-17; 12:14; Revelation 22:11, 15).
    I am not trying to deny the Perseverance of the Saints, but rather to establish it. 'For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you, nor forsake you"' (Hebrews 13:5).
     
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  12. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    By God’s grace the believer’s seat in heaven is secure!

    Security is based on God’s work rather not man’s works. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. The character of God, the plan of the Father, the work of the Son, and the presence of the Spirit all guarantee the believer’s soul is safe in God.

    The power of God is infinite. Therefore He is able to keep us (2 Timothy 1:12). He can do what He says He will do (Romans 4:21; 1 Peter 1:5). To believe that a believer can be pulled out of the all-powerful grasp of God (John 10:29) is to perceive that Satan is more powerful than God (1 John 4:4). God’s power insures that once He saves, we are always saved because He is able to save and to keep.

    The love of God is unlimited. God loved us enough to give His Son to die for us while we were yet sinners – at enmity with God. He loves his children much more – enough that He will not cast them away when they sin (Romans 5:7-10). Nothing can separate us from the love of God (Romans 8:35-39).

    The sovereign purpose of God is to save all who believe (John 3:16). If a believer could fall from grace, he would not be saved. Therefore, if one could believe and yet be finally lost, the sovereign purpose of God to save all who believe would be frustrated (Philippians 2:13).

    Jesus Christ died instead of us (1 John 2:2; Hebrews 2:9). There can be no condemnation to one who is in Christ by faith (Romans 8:1). To believe in apostasy is to believe that the death of Jesus is not sufficient to cover all our sins. But John asserts that His blood cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). He made a one-time substitutionary sacrifice which is sufficient and eternal – it will never have to be repeated (Hebrews 10:11-12).

    Not only did Christ die for us, but He ever lives to intercede for us (Hebrews 7:25). Hence, He is able to save completely. Who can condemn you, when He who died for you is at God’s right hand to intercede for you (Romans 8:34)! The Father’s acceptance of His Son assures us that He will hear His intercession. He is well-pleased with Him (Matthew 17:5).

    When we are saved, we are born of God (John 1:13; 3:6). God is our Father and we are His children by birth – a fact that can never be erased. His seed is in His people (1 John 3:9) and remains implanted. The new birth is based on Jesus’s righteousness imputed to our account – not how much righteousness we have or can maintain (which is none). His righteousness will not diminish.

    Believers are indwelt by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:9,16) and sealed by the Spirit as belonging to God (Ephesians 1:13-14). The Spirit is given as the earnest of our inheritance – the guarantee that we will receive what God has promised. If the promise could be broken, God would have to let us keep His guarantee – the fallen believer would take the earnest (Spirit) to Hell with him. Unthinkable! This could not be.

    God is immutable or unchanging. This is the ultimate guarantee of our salvation. If He were changeable, we would be destroyed (Malachi 3:6). We do not have to worry about our salvation because God is always the same. He will not lose His power. He will not stop loving us. His sovereign purpose will not be frustrated. Jesus’s blood will always be sufficient. He will always intercede in our behalf. God will not take back His Holy Spirit from us. We will always be His children (Hebrews 13:8; James 1:17). When God does something, He does it to last and no one can change that (Ecclesiastes 3:14). Be assured – there will be no vacant seats in heaven.
     
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  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Indeed He was. Were not the Pharisees religious folk who claimed to believe in Yahveh?
     
  14. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I def love all the Scripture references. And they bring back memories of when God opened my eyes to the beautiful Truth that I am his forever.

    But one such truth always sticks out. GOD covenanted to love me forever and He won't throw His Child into Hell.
     
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  15. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but I already had seven points! ;)
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I keep coming back to Jude, and to Jesus Himself, for since he is God, He stated that ALL that are given to Him shall be raised up and kept, and if that was the only thing stated to us in Bible regarding this issue, would be enough!
     
  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    your are right they claimed to be

    Mat 3:7

    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Hello Lcrider, and welcome to the Forum, I hope your time here will be blessed and that you in turn will be a blessing to those here.

    I would preface what I will say concerning Eternal Security with this: this is something I feel that is made understood to the believer by God, and the only way to fully understand it in your heart is through diligent study in the Word of God.

    But I can assure you, God will grant the understanding of this topic if you spend time with Him in His Word.

    The first thing I would recommend is that you learn proper technique in Study. The first bit of advice I will give is "Scripture is the best commentary on Scripture," so what we can do is compare Scripture with Scripture, rather than compare the doctrines of men with Scripture, because the problem with the latter is that we all tend to be biased in regards to the leadership we are saved under, and that can interfere with our studies.

    I will first give you what I view as the most inarguable and irrefutable statement of Eternal Security I have found in all of Scripture:


    Hebrews 10:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



    If you are scratching your head, don't feel bad, lol, because what we now have to do is understand this statement in the context of the passage it is found in. I will say that what the Writer is saying is found in a context dealing with a contrast between the sacrifice of the Law (Hebrews is specific to the Hebrew People, that has to be kept in mind when in study of this Epistle) and the sacrifice of Christ.

    So let's look at the beginning of the Chapter:


    Hebrews 10:1-4
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



    I have inserted a link for the word "perfect," which does not mean what we normally use that word for in our culture, but instead speaks of a bringing to an end, a finishing, a making complete.

    The context is that of remission of sins, and the Writer starts out stating that the sacrifice of the Law can never make the comer thereunto (the worshiper) complete in regards to remission of sins.

    He asks...would they not have ceased if they could have?

    And the reason they could not cease was because they could not take away sins. Now let's look at our key text again, and I will put both together to make it easier to see the correlation:


    Hebrews 10:1-4
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



    Hebrews 10:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



    So what he is saying is that while the sacrifices offered up under the Law could not make one complete in regards to remission of sins, the Offering of Christ can, and does, and this...

    ...forever.

    Hebrews 10 is one of the greatest chapters in all of Scripture, though widely rested by those who teach loss of salvation, who I affectionately call the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers).

    This is just a primer for you to now go and look at Chapter Ten in full, and when you get to vv.26-27, and think they teach loss of salvation, we will discuss it.

    But for now, look at this one point, and give it some consideration. We will expand the text as we go. I think vv.1-4 are pretty easy to understand, but its best to understand this Book as a whole, though there is no reason why you can't see what the Writer is saying in this Chapter apart from a thorough study of the entire Book.


    Continued...
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    No, actually there are no verses that support loss of salvation, but wrested proof-texts taken completely out of the context of the passages they are found in.

    An example of this would be Hebrews 10:26-27, which unfortunately, is taught to refer to Christians losing their salvation, when that is not the case at all.

    In view are those who have not been saved because they are rejecting Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the ministry of the Comforter.

    Take a look at who those in view are contrasted with:


    Hebrews 10:26-29
    King James Version (KJV)

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



    The wilful sin is described in v.29, and the contrast is made with those who rejected the Covenant of Law (Moses' Law), not with Christians who do not willfully sin.

    He is saying "Those who rejected the Covenant of Law were put to death (and this was physical death), how much worse will it be for those who reject Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the Spirit of Grace?"

    Again, Hebrews is specific to the Hebrew People, and what the Writer does is exhort them to embrace Christ. In Hebrews 6:1 (which is usually ignored by the L.O.S.T.) he exhorts them to...go on unto Perfection, which again, speaks of completion in Christ, contrasted with the First Principles of the Oracles of God, or in other words, the ABCs of the Doctrine of Christ as found in the Hebrew Scriptures. They are told not to lay again the foundational principles, but to go on unto perfection, or, completion.

    But that is another issue that deserves full attention, so that is all I will say about that passage at this time. But we will inevitably get to it in a discussion of Eternal Security, because it is another passage wrested by the L.O.S.T.

    That's a good plan:


    James 1:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.



    God will give us understanding if we ask of Him, and He does that through our time spent with Him in the Word of God.

    When I was still a fairly new Christian Hebrews intimidated me out of all Books of the Bible. I then heard a preacher say, "Before I try to teach out of any Book, I will sit down and read it 50 times." So I thought, "I'll try that with Hebrews," and before I had gotten through it ten times it began to make sense to me. So familiarity with a broader base of Scripture is necessary to put all the parts together. As I said, Scripture is the best commentary on Scripture, so it is in Scripture we must devote our time. Commentaries are helpful at times, but it is just my opinion God will teach us better if we go straight to Him with a plea for understanding, and, while it might be the sweat of our brows, lol, God if faithful to reward diligent study.


    Probably the thing that troubles you most, Lcrider, is exposure to poor teaching, where the L.O.S.T. may have used proof texts out of context to teach loss of salvation. So there is a two-fold process of understanding Eternal Security, first, you must come to understand the positive statements of Eternal Security in Scripture, and secondly, you must understand why the L.O.S.T. are in error by teaching loss of salvation.

    It's going to take work, and as I said, only God can bring you peace on this subject, because we cannot transfer our understandings one to another. But if you are willing to put a little work in, I'd be glad to show you why we can fully trust Jesus Christ with our eternal destinies.


    God bless.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Romans 8, ending of Jude, Hebrews that states to us that Jesus as High Priest saves forever those he has saved, just too much scripture that support that eternal life means just that!
     
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