OT law

First, the reason many don't want to answer you directly, imho, is that it is offensive/arrogant to believe we have the right to pass judgment on what God has done.

We have no right to say "yes, God was being too severe... or no, God was not being too severe..." because we have no right to pass judgment upon God.

That being said, it seems you may not be articulating very well the question you are trying to ask.

You appear to be asking "Since God prescribed capital punishment for various offenses in the O.T., (murder, adultery, homose*uality, striking a parent, and rape among others) shouldn't we practice capital punishment for those offenses today?

Please correct me if I am wrong. If that is what you are asking, then the direct answer is "no" because Jesus changed the terms for administering the death penalty in John 8. It is no longer the "two or three" witnesses that cast the first stone (administer the death penalty), it is the "one who is without sin". Since God is the only one without sin, only God can administer the death penalty.

I don't believe that God has changed the way He feels about such things. God has obviously changed the way He deals with people today, in the Light of His Son and the revelation which He has given us.

God doesn't deal with us the same way as He dealt with the Jews under the Law.

And one more thought. The Apostle Paul is clear that if you desire to live under the Law, then you have to keep the whole Law..., not just the part you have a particular interest in keeping.

As far as the death penalty goes, Christians should not support the death penalty, as it is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

peace to youraying:

 

The death penalty is scriptural. jn 8 does not negate it

 

I disagree. Jesus changed the requirements for implementing the death penalty in John 8, that is plain in the context.

Beyond that, as Christians, we are commanded to have "perfect patience" when dealing with the worst of sinners. Putting them to death, or supporting their deaths, violates that command..., therefore, supporting the death penalty is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and Christians should not support the death penalty for that reason.

peace to youraying:

 

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What does the Bible say about the death penalty / capital punishment?


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Question: "What does the Bible say about the death penalty / capital punishment?"

Answer: The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), and several other crimes. However, God often showed mercy when the death penalty was due. David committed adultery and murder, yet God did not demand his life be taken (2 Samuel 11:1-5, 14-17; 2 Samuel 12:13). Ultimately, every sin we commit should result in the death penalty because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Thankfully, God demonstrates His love for us in not condemning us (Romans 5:8).

When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus replied, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7). This should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus into breaking the Old Testament law; they did not truly care about the woman being stoned (where was the man who was caught in adultery?) God is the One who instituted capital punishment: “Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). Jesus would support capital punishment in some instances. Jesus also demonstrated grace when capital punishment was due (John 8:1-11). The apostle Paul definitely recognized the power of the government to institute capital punishment where appropriate (Romans 13:1-7).

How should a Christian view the death penalty? First, we must remember that God has instituted capital punishment in His Word; therefore, it would be presumptuous of us to think that we could institute a higher standard. God has the highest standard of any being; He is perfect. This standard applies not only to us but to Himself. Therefore, He loves to an infinite degree, and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has wrath to an infinite degree, and it is all maintained in a perfect balance.

Second, we must recognize that God has given government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. Christians should never rejoice when the death penalty is employed, but at the same time, Christians should not fight against the government’s right to execute the perpetrators of the most evil of crimes.

 

Just to be clear, I didn't make any such statement for you to "agree" with me.

You should be careful not to presume to know what is in someone's heart or the motivations they have for their beliefs. To call them "self-righteous" for pointing out the obvious (men don't get to judge God's actions) is high-handed on your part.

Matt. 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder'..... (22) But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;..."

Did Jesus change our understanding of the Law?

Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery', (28) But I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Did Jesus change our understanding of the Law?

Matt. 5:33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord'" (34) But I say to you, make no oath at all....."

Did Jesus change our understanding of the Law?

John 8:7 "But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and siad to them, 'He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.'"

Jesus isn't just trying to embarrass them. He is making a direct reference to the O.T. Law concerning the implementation of the death penalty.

Deut. 17:6-7 "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. (7) The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people..." (my bold for emphasis, not yelling)

Jesus changes the law for implementing the death penalty. Instead of 2 or three witnesses being the first to cast the stones (implementing the death penalty), it is the "he who is without sin" who implements the death penalty.

That leaves only God to implement the death penalty, since only God is sinless.

Gal: 5:3 "And I testify again to everyone man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law..."

If you keep one part of the Law, you are obligated to keep it all.

Yes, it is.

I Tim. 1:16 "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Paul has just stated He considers himself the foremost of all sinners. Paul was a murderer of Christians by his own admission.

This passage is very clear and very specific. Jesus gave all future believers an example to live by concerning our attitudes toward the worst of sinners. That example was one of perfect patience with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

To support the death penalty violates this command to have "perfect patience" with the worst of sinners, just as Jesus our Lord had perfect patience with Paul. It also violates our Lord's command that only the one without sin can implement the death penalty.

Supporting the death penalty is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and Christians should not support the death penalty for that reason.

peace to youraying:

 

The standard given to Christians is "perfect patience" with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

Support for the death penalty is contrary to the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ and Christians should not support the death penalty for that reason.

peace to youraying:

 

Obey.

No He was not being too severe, He makes the rules and He rescinds them as well (Acts 10, Acts 15).

Yes we should have these standards because the law was given to unregenerate flesh of which the world is presently comprised (for the most part).

But apart from the death penalty for murder In the Western world (for the most part and some nations don't even have the death penalty for any reason - Canada) we dont.

Neither can we take it upon ourselves as individuals to enforce those laws which our governments do not judicate or enforce as we are instructed to obey the laws of the land in which we reside.

Another point to be made is that even under the Law there was mercy.
e.g. David and his acts of adultery and then premeditated murder.

Then there were the Prophets which offered mercy to Israel-Judah if they would repent.

Another point, as Christians led of the Spirit we should think ourselves exempt from His chastising hand when we leave off following Him.

In addition there is scriptural evidence that mercy when it is in our power to grant it, is considered a good thing...

Matthew 1

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.​

Having answered your questions, I have a question for you freeatlast (or anyone).

What about Sabbath Keeping?
Should Christians (or anyone) be put to death for not keeping the earthly Sabbath or failing to go to church on the Lord's Day?

HankD

 

Hello jd,
here is a good sermon;let me know what you think;

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=62803175244

there are four sermons in this series,all are excellent:thumbs:

 

Good.

Thanks.

HankD

 

The passage is not questionable in my mind. It is scripture. It has a long affirmation as such.

The context is specifically about the death penalty and how it is implemented. Jesus alludes to the O.T. Law about implementing the death penalty when He changes the standard for implementation from "2 or 3 witnesses" to the "one who is without sin."

I always find it interesting that those who shout the loudest about following what scripture says are quick to dismiss it or ignore what it says when it is contrary to what they want to believe.

peace to youraying:

 

God gave the standard. He does not have to "hold" to the same standard He has given to us, He is God. He delivers perfect justice, in perfect righteousness, according to His perfect nature.

I did not come up with the standard of "perfect patience". Jesus has given Christians the standard of "perfect patience" when dealing with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul (I Tim. 1:16). That is the clear language of the text.

All you have to do is decide if you are going to obey the commands of Christ or not. That was one of your questions, wasn't it? Will you obey the commands of our Lord, and will you stand against God and the clear teaching of scripture? You decide.

And God gave the standard for implementing the death penalty. The "one who is without sin" is the one who implements the death penalty.

Would you rather have the world's standards? or God's standards?

peace to youraying:

 

Thank you for the thought.

Unfortunately, internet dial-up service is all that is available in my area. It would take far more time to download (hours w/o a doubt) than I can spare.

peace to youraying:

 

Let's see.
I have given you a specific passage of scripture to support what I believe. (I Tim. 1:16). The context is clear. The command is clear. The implications are clear.

And yet, you claim it is "dumb" and a lie from satan. You then join the world in mocking a Christian believer for holding the view.

I'm not the one who is decieved here. I'm not the one joining the world in mocking a Christian for following the commands of Jesus Christ.

Rather than address the passage of scripture to point out how I am wrong, you claim I have been decieved by satan into embracing the "dumbest belief"....

Friend, God gave many laws that people are unable to carry out. That is a foundational belief among most Christians, imho, that the Law pointed to our need for a Savior precisely because we couldn't fulfill the demands of the Law.

BTW, you have accused me of believing a lie from satan, of having "dumb" beliefs, and now of being willfully ignorant... all without even attempting to address the passage of scripture I am using to base my beliefs.

You then have the audacity to lecture me about what constitutes great "Christian attributes".

You go ahead and follow the world, I'll follow the teachings of my Lord Jesus Christ instead.

peace to youraying: