Our people in Heaven

You "Solve" the problem by having the dead "be living while dead" and no need of anything in the future for this to be true.

BUT CHRIST SAID that this statment REQUIRES the solution of "the resurrection" and that ONLY via the resurrection could that statement quoted in Mark 12 be considered to be true.

Your argument and Christ's are 100% opposed to each other.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The THREE states mentioned in 2Cor 3:1-3 are once again ignored by your post.

Your interpretation was already refuted here -

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3798/2.html#000024

 

Are you saying that this is what Christ meant when He said "Lazarus sleeps I go to awaken HIM" in John 11??
</font>[/QUOTE]I see this all the time the Greek word translated "sleep" in John 11 is speaking of death not literal sleep. It amazes me how so many folk refuse to consider the Greek and limit God's Word to the not so expressive English language. Bob and Claudia may I ask if you two are KJVO?

 

declarehim,

I always use the King James Bible, and see no need for anything else. I dont like other bibles that change the wording because I compare the wording in the verses and ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten me. Once they change the wording, they've ruined it. I dont get into this greek and hebrew stuff. I think when Jesus said God has hidden things from the wise and scholarly and revealed them unto babes... He really meant it.

What difference does it make if it means sleep or death?

you are in the grave till the second coming. I view it as that you are unconscious and know nothing. Whether you are taking a rest or just plain dead,,, I dont see how that matters.

 

JFox1:
Most churches don't believe in soul sleep. Don't try to blame that on the Roman Catholics. I'm Lutheran, and the Lutheran Church long rejected Roman Catholic teachings. The Eastern Orthodox Churches don't believe in soul sleep, either, They also reject Roman Catholic teachings.

 

Or could it be that Ellen White's "proof" (and I use the term loosely) Scripture doesn't line up with better more modern translating of the words?

Not to be the party pooper here but Paul didn't write in English. He wrote the Bible in Greek Kione to be precise. The Original texts were inspired and inerrant. Please give me Scripture that mentions that translations will be divinely inspired or error free?
In Christ,
Nate

 

Nate,

But God does.

Nate,

On the day of pentecost the message was given in one language but everyone heard in their own native language.

All of them heard the inerrant word of the Lord.

Today, God is doing the very same thing, but sometimes in a different way.

The same annointing of God is on all of the reputable transations of the scriptures.

I've discovered fromn personal experience that...

God speaks English!

Mike

 

nate,

I have given more than even biblical proof for my position. It is stupid that you would resort to playing the "Elln White" card against me.


Claudia

 

I find it astonishing that anybody could come up with the idea that the dead are in heaven now. There is absolutley no biblical evidence to support that idea.

And like I said, Im just happy that I didnt have these false ideas drilled into my head from "church tradition", saying the head are in heaven, Give m the Bible verses to prove that? There arent any.

Its just like with the Sunday Sabbath issue, There isnt a one thing in the Bible that supports the idea, yet Christians have adopted it because of "Church tradition". Well my daddy kept sunday and his daddy and his too so why shouldnt I?

Its hard for me to fathom this mentality, it really is. And its like it doesnt even matter if you show them a thousand Bible verses to support your position, they will just weasel their way around it, no matter what.

It is sad.

Just like the Bible says to comfort one another with the idea that at the second coming, the dead will rise out of their graves and go up to be with Jesus in Heaven. But INSTEAD you go to Christian funerals and they say "oh Aunt Matilda in in heaven now looking down upon us".

Its absolutely absurd.


Claudia

[ April 17, 2006, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

I meant to say Ive given you more than enough biblical proof. In my former post to nate.

This lapto computer is strange, it inserts letters right into the middle of sentences, etc.. and sometimes I dont catch it... then its too late to go back to edit it.

 

Jn:14:2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jn:14:3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

If Jesus goes to prepare a place for us, and when He comes again He will receive us unto Himself...

well then how can the dead be in heaven NOW??

 

TO EVERYBODY:

Let me ask all of you "Biblical Scholars" a question... take time to actually read the following verses:

I Thessalonians 4:
13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

now explain to me, if you were officiating at a Christian Funeral, would YOU comfort everyone there with those words?

if so, WHY, if the person who died is already in heaven?

This means that those who are alive WILL NOT GO UP TO HEAVEN BEFORE those who are asleep in Christ:

15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

and I dont need any other Bible translation to tell me that. I can read just what it says. I dont need Ellen White to tell me, you know why? BECAUSE I LEARNED TO READ AT AN EARLY AGE.

you are supposed to be comforting the greiving family and friends with idea realization that at the second coming, Jesus is coming to GET those who are alive and in the graves alseep, to take them to heaven.

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO??? is anybody home?


Claudia

[ April 17, 2006, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

Personally, I think alot of you have thought yourselves to be so darn "scholarly" that you have thought you had to research into the greek or the hebrew or whatever... till you have wise-guyed yourselves right out of the truth... and no matter how SIMPLE and how PLAIN a Bible verse is.. you will manage to find your way around it and in many cases make it seem to say the exact opposite of what it actually says!

Like, when the Bible says keep the commandments, it really means we dont have to, but of course you must be among the "Biblical Scholars" to be able to figure this out.

Its a shame. Very very sad.

Jesus said we must become like children, and He also said:

Mt:11:25: At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

do you know what that means? What it means is that people like me know that when the Bible says that the dead will rise out of their graves to go be with Jesus and that those who are then alive will not go before the dead... thats exactly what it means!

Wow, what a concept!

I also thank God I am not amongst the "scholarly elite" and that I am able to just take the simple word of God just as it reads.


Claudia

 

sorry but Im just a little disgusted with all of these biblical wise guys who seem to be able to twist the most simple Bible verses around till they have managed to talk thnemselves right out of the truth.

 

Ok then tell me when Jesus was transfigured who was it that the discples see with Him? Or when John was given the "Revelation" who was the 24 elders and where were they at? Nope there is too much in the bible to show otherwise. But like I have said before and I will say agian what is the difference if a body sleeps or if one imediatly goes to be before the Lord when they die? "Either or" what is the difference they will wake up in eternity and the side they wake up on depends on their salvation... not the denomination or church they attended.

 

No, the Seventh-Day Adventist Church managed to talk its followers out of the truth, just as Herbert Armstrong, Joseph Smith, Russell, and others have managed to talk their followers out of the truth.

 

Christ is here speaking of the New Heaven or New Jerusalem not the intermediate place inbetween. I agree with the earlier poster this idea of soul sleep is much like the RCC idea of purgatory.
In Christ,
Nate

 

Some of you can hang around this old world in the dirt if you so please, but as for me, I will take the Bible at face value....."absent from the body, present with the Lord..." There is no interim place...it is instant!

Cheers,

Jim

 

Yes, it is instant, to the person dying. That's why I don't see what the problem is. (and God to God who is not even trapped in time, of course, would also see the person as "alive"). It is not any "interim place" such as a purgatory. That's the whole point. It's the traditional side that teaches an "interim place" of a disembodied existence, until the body is added back later. Has anyone ever though of why the body is resurrected, if the disembodied "heavenly existence" is the real deal?

As she was dying, she named him. She didn't name him after her soul departed. How would anyone even hear that?
And if the issue is the word "Departing", that is metaphorical language. Just like people try to say "sleep" is metaphorical language, this is a matter of weighing all the passages, and interpreting the less clear ones in light of the more clear ones. Often, the opposite is done, as in the following:

--this is talking about His burial and resurrection, and the redemption from the curse of sin it brought us. It says not a thing about carrying souls up to heaven (or "Abraham's bosom"), or carrying a whole section of Hades itself up to Heaven.

1Pet.3:18-20 and 4:3-6 are also often used, and many in the past have combined this with Christ's burial, and have posited a whole scenario of Christ "descending into Hell", which must have had two sections, "paradise" for the righteous, and a place of suffering for the wicked; and that Christ preached to its inhabitants, and even bringing the righteous (such as Noah) back up with him, to Heaven. Some parts of this are now rejected by various interpreters, but still these passages do appear as "proofs" that the righteous dead before Christ were alive in Sheol/Hades, and now they are alive in "Heaven". Others see the reference to Noah as referring to fallen angels, who existed back then as well as now. But for one thing, fallen angels are not "sometimes" disobedient, and the other angels are never disobedient. It is useless to "preach" to either. In the context, above we see Paul is discussing unsaved people now (i.e. in his time, and of course it applies to our time as well), who taunt Christians for not living like them anymore. It was this same type of people in the "world" in Noah's time, who mocked as he built his ark to escape the coming judgment, and all soon perished. It was not those people in Noah's time who were being preached to by Christ, (unless you see Christ preaching to them through Noah) but just a comparison of the wickedness. The point is, Christ's message is being offered to these people in the world today, enslaved in the prison of sin and condemnation. This passage even seems to be a reference to (fulfilment of) the messianic prophecy in Isaiah 42:1-7 "Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not fail nor be discouraged until He has set judgment in the earth; and the coasts shall wait for His law. So says God, the LORD He who created the heavens and stretched them out, spreading out the earth and its offspring; He who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it. I the LORD have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand, and will keep You, and give You for a covenant of the people, for a Light to the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness out of the prison house".
This is even recognized in chain references. Sin is many times over referenced as both "prison" and "death".

Hanegraaf, in Christianity in Crisis, p.396, uses this passage as a proof text of Christ descending to Hades to preach to the righteous in "paradise", but then his own Christian Research Journal (12-97 p.24,25) Luke Wilson, answering Mormon doctrine of the salvation of the dead (a logical possibility with common interpretation of the passage) shatters the idea. The passage suggests this happened after Christ was put to death, and then made alive. And he ultimately shows from the Greek that this passage is describing Christ's PROCLAMATION of victory which "took place in the context of this journey". (though he takes the view that it was to fallen angels; though after the resurrection). In the notes he adds :"I do not believe 1 Pet.3:18 ff can properly be understood in connection with the doctrine of Christ's descent into Hades during the time His body lay in the tomb".

 

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