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Featured Overfilling potholes

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Mar 25, 2023.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Often when studying scripture, we must "fill in the blank." Something is said where we must supply the scope of the statement. Our interpretive translation fills in potholes produced by ambiguity. For example, Jesus knows all. Is the intended scope, Jesus knows everything imaginable, or just Jesus know all of the things in view based on context?

    When we expand the scope of the text, like overfilling potholes in a street, we create just another road hazard.

    When we see "the things" of the Spirit, do we say all the things of the spirit, or "at least some of the things of the spirit?"

    When we see "no one seeks after God," do we say no one "ever" seeks after God, or no one always seeks after God?"

    When we see "do not allow the women to speak in church," do we say do not allow any women to ever speak in church, or do not allow disruptive women to speak in church?

    The key to not overfilling the potholes is to ask, what is the minimum God is saying.
     
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  2. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    How about this:
    Eating in a church building!

    Are these verses telling us NOT to eat in the church building
    or does it mean that the Lords Supper should not be a large buffet.

    (Granted - it is very impolite to eat while the pastor is preaching- but i have
    no problem with a good fellowship dinner)

    And yes - there are chruches who prohibit any eating in the church building.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Legalism results in placing too much importance on too much insignificance.
    Lawlessness results in placing too little importance on too much significance.

    Those that overfill potholes expand scripture, and those who do not fill potholes take away from scripture.

    But if we are able to discern what is the least that God is saying, then we can fill the pothole, the blank, the ambiguity as contextually intended.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Many doctrines are made by filling potholes (often potholes that do not exist).

    One example is deacons being married to one woman prohibiting divorced men from serving in that position.

    Another that has a far greater impact is taking the double use of "die" in Genesis to mean a spiritual dying (that Adam died spiritually). This is more severe as theologies have been built on that supposition (and, of course, that it undermines "Spiritual Life" and Christ as this Life).
     
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  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The reason for that interpretation is an attempt to call that death something, it taking place that very day. ". . . for in the day that thou eatest thereof . . . .". ". . . Ye shall not surely die: . . ." ". . . your eyes shall be opened, . . ." ". . . And the eyes of them both were opened, . . ." It was a death.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I get that they rewrite the verse to say "you surely shall die on that day", but even if they don't get English they should look to the original language.

    My point is there is no justification for taking "death" to be any "other death" than physical death (God even explains to Adam that he will return to dust).
     
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  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That effectively denies the fallen nature. And replaces it with the physical death. And since physical death was always part of God's good creation it reduces the fall into a lie.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What I am saying is the idea is filling in potholes. It does contradict a theology many love, especially Catholic doctrine (and I suppose by default reformed RCC doctrine) BUT it uses "dying" in a way foreign to Scripture. It is a product of viewing Scripture as dots to be connected rather than a complete narrative.

    For example, can you think of any passages that describes spiritual life as temporary? Can you think of a reason to divorce God's comment that Adam would return to dust from death?

    We too often complain that adhering to Scripture alone would invalidate a particular doctrine. But that's why we must try. Many doctrines are exactly what @Van suggested, obstacles more dangerous than the supposed potholes they were invented to avoid
     
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  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, the death resulting from Adam's sin has caused the whole human race to have what we call a sinful nature.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But some fill in what they see as potholes.

    God told Adam he would die and referenced "for dust you are, and to dust you shall return". Reading Scripture as a narrative it'd seem to present this as a physical death. But some see a pothole here and divorce God's words from "death".

    The day Adam eats of the fruit he will surely die. The very basic meaning is that death would become certain (that day Adam would surely die). But some see a pothole, so they reword the verse to read "you will surely die on that day" (a subtle but substantial change, especially since the Hebrew simple uses a double which is normally taken as an emphasis or definitive).

    Man's nature is described in Scripture as being "of the flesh", "flesh", of Adam, ect. But Scripture does not talk of a "fallen nature". That is a pothole.

    Scripture tells us a few things that happened to Adam. He would return to dust. His eyes were opened (he "became like [God] knowing good and evil"). But there is a pothole. Some assume this was a change in nature rather than a change in knowledge or understanding (knowing good and evil).

    So we have two different things. We have the Biblical narrative (Adam would die, death entered the world, Adam's eyes were opened, ect.). But we also have fillers (Adam spiritually died, Adam's nature changed).
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How did Adam die that very day? He did. The physical death was not the death of Genesis 2:17.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Scripture does not say that Adam would die on that day. That is rewording Scripture.

    Scripture has God telling Adam that on the day he eats of the fruit he will surely die. And that is what happened. God pronounced this when He said "from dust you are and to dust you will return". Through Adam's sin death entered the world.

    Where did you get the idea that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit?
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ". . . the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ."
    Or ". . . Ye shall not surely die: . . ."
     
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Jon... Here is an explanation from John Gill on his Exposition Of The Bible... Brother Glen:)

    for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die;
    or "in dying, die" F26; which denotes the certainty of it, as our version expresses it; and may have regard to more deaths than one; not only a corporeal one, which in some sense immediately took place, man became at once a mortal creature, who otherwise continuing in a state of innocence, and by eating of the tree of life, he was allowed to do, would have lived an immortal life; of the eating of which tree, by sinning he was debarred, his natural life not now to be continued long, at least not for ever; he was immediately arraigned, tried, and condemned to death, was found guilty of it, and became obnoxious to it, and death at once began to work in him; sin sowed the seeds of it in his body, and a train of miseries, afflictions, and diseases, began to appear, which at length issued in death. Moreover, a spiritual or moral death immediately ensued; he lost his original righteousness, in which he was created; the image of God in him was deformed; the powers and faculties of his soul were corrupted, and he became dead in sins and trespasses; the consequence of which, had it not been for the interposition of a surety and Saviour, who engaged to make satisfaction to law and justice, must have been eternal death, or an everlasting separation from God, to him and all his posterity; for the wages of sin is death, even death eternal, ( Romans 6:23 ) . So the Jews F1 interpret this of death, both in this world and in the world to come.
     
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, it says "the day you eat of it you shall surely die". I agree with that.

    But why change it to say Adam would die on that day? The English doesn't mean Adam would die on that day. The Hebrew is clearer (using "die" twice as a certainty or emphatic).

    My question is given one possible meaning (that death would be a reality for Adam) why fill in the absence of a specific day by adding an idea not present in Scripture (that "dying" means "dying spiritually")?
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree with Gill that "dying" denotes certainty, but I do not see any possible reason in Scripture for adding a second type of dying. Scripture never uses dying to mean dying spiritually elsewhere, so it is illogical to add it here.

    Another problem is Scripture emphatically associates spiritual life with Jesus, and this an everlasting life.

    Are you aware of any verse that indicates one was spiritually alive and then died spiritually? Or if any verse that indicates spiritual life except in Christ?

    It is something we have grown up with thanks to Catholic influences, but I do not see it in Scripture itself (and, obviously, it was an idea foreign to the pre-Christian Hebrew faith).
     
  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I guess that is the reason you don't believe in Total Depravity but Total Inability... In Total Depravity... God is Sovereign and man is not... In Total Inability... It is man who is Sovereign and God who is not... Show me one scripture where man helped God create the Universe... Man was the last thing God created but he still taking credit for the new creation, robbing God of his glory... Brother Glen:)
     
  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    The key to filling potholes is let God fill the potholes and YOU put down the shovel... Brother Glen:)
     
  19. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Not the "pothole" definition in the OP.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    But Adam and Eve did die a death on that day.
     
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