P=Perseverance of the Saints

The scripture you refer to is Paul's personal testimony, it is not a guarantee from God that you cannot be seduced away from God.

Belief, like the love you have for your wife and children comes from within you. As long as you live in this natural life, you can change. No that is not my prayer or wish for you, it is a statement of truth! If something should shake you to your very foundation, you could lose your faith, and thus your everlasting life. Your marriage could fail, again that is not my prayer or wish for you, it is a statement of truth! Everything that you believe could be shaken so terribly hard that you lose your faith. That happens, it happened to JOB, a righteous man! If you haven't seen it for yourself or in others, then count yourself fortunate. I've seen it happen to four pastors of growing churches. Evil does not want the church to grow and it often strikes down the pastors of those churches.

Never! Never! Never! take love for granted! Work at it. Keep it refreshed!

That's just the point. Jesus died for my sins. There is no punishment left for my sins. It is not possible for me to die now. Jesus died for my sins. I will live forever, I must, God said nothing can separate me from Him and I believe Him. As for you, I believe you are saying you do not sin. Would I be correct in this?</font>[/QUOTE]NO! you are not correct! I do sin, but like you I do not die because of my sins. I confess them and receive God's wonderful forgiveness, and cleansing from unrighteousness.

Let's see, If God is Love, Then Love is all that God can be. "God is love" is a declaration of a human being named John. Jesus, who is the Son of God clearly states that THE FATHER IS SPIRIT, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth! It seems to me that Jesus should know, after all, Jesus declared that "he comes from the Father". John never made such a declaration.

So, my point is that God is not an emotion, but Spirit who has emotions, Love among them. Would it be right to declare that GOD IS HATE? After all God says that He Hates. How about making the declaration that God is a crybaby, God the Son wept. God gets disgusted, God repents, etc. The point is God is not one of his emotions, God is God who is Spirit, and who loves, etc. We are made in His image, and though we love, we are not LOVE. Do you see my point?

.
I am English. I am English by nature. I do not need to exercise my Englishness because I am English. In the same way I do not need to exercise my nature to keep my nature. I need no exercise to stay human or Christian. Do you understand that? Not whether you agree with it but do you get my drift?</font>[/QUOTE]You exercise your Englishness with every breath because you do not know anything else! However, if you failed to exercise your learned righteousness, you would definitely revert to Sin, because sin is the nature you were born with! By faith you were born again into righteousness, that faith must be exercised or you may lose it, the result would be sin!

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God! FAITH is regeneration! By faith you are regenerated from sin nature to righteousness nature. Salvation is through FAITH ALONE, because of the completed Salvific work that Divine God did for sinful man. Even so, the scriptures declare that without faith there is no salvation!

As for Christ's genes, NO, I don't think that the Christ fathered any children! and that is the way that genes are passed from gene-ration to gene-ration! You may have human genes in the manner that Jesus had human genes, and if you are out of the "Root of Jesse" as Jesus was, then perhaps you have a trace of the same genes that were part of Jesus' flesh. You may have some spiritual genes that Jesus instilled in your spirit, but you have no direct physical genes from Jesus.

NO sir, that is direct divine intervention while grace prevailed. Jesus transformed a religious zealot, into a Christian there on the Damascus Road.

I have to disagree with you. It is love in the highest order to be set free from religious dogma!

 

Hi John P;

I'd be glad to would you care to make the first comment on the first one. Maybe we can work through all of them by the end of the week.
May God bless You;
Mike

 

Ok ILUVLIGHT.

Start tomorrow if that's alright.

I am afraid that I shall be going across the North Sea Thursday, to Dutchland, back Sunday God willing.

johnp.

 

Hi Ray;

I'm affraid all that is burned up is our, worthless works most likely the ones we are most proud of.
I had another person use the same scripture to show me that my body would be burned up, but my spirit would be saved. but we both know that isn't what is said.
Belief, faith even Hope is not a work of Man but of God. All we have to do is be willing participants. We can always reject and have our branches cut out.
I believe the Bible says in the mouth of two or three witnesses a thing is established. I have to go by what the majority of witnesses establish. There isn't any other truth. Anything less than this is wishful thinking.

I've been sick all day so until tomorrow.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Hang on a minute Wes.

You can't have a go at me because you said, "God is love." And I didn't comment. Shooting at shadows man!
I have a long list of 'God is's...'.

I do. Why such vehemence as we say the same thing?

Romans 9:37-39 is now only good for Paul. Any other scriptures we should take the scissors to? This is important. People are basing their lives on Paul's autobiography! Great!
You attempt to empty the word of God of it's meaning?

What happens between you sinning and you asking forgiveness. What is your status. Are you not a son of God? Do you lose your salvation when you sin, as if anything we do can be ragarded as not sin, and win it again when you ask for forgiveness? I'd like to know.
Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. We are judged by what we know. If we did not know the law we will be judged by our conscience in accordance with what we knew by nature. Any to have been found short of the law will perish whether they heard it or not. The sentence will reflect their lack of knowledge in a concrete form and they will go to Hell with a less severe punishment. It's still Hell.

What do you mean revert to sin? I am sin. Your 'learned righteousness' can go and take a long walk of a short pier, my righteousness is my Christ and nowt else. I refuse to offer my filthy rags up to the Lord of Glory. Let Him clothe me I do and that's for sure. I am holy, spotless and blameless and I intend to stay that way. You should repent of your 'learned righteousness' it's bad for you.

The result would indeed be sin. If I were to lose my righteousness then where would He be? Where could I look for my lover? My Head. Never fear I am hidden in Him. We can go and get lost together. How, pray tell, can one lose faith? How can one not exercise it?

How do you know I don't know anything else? It is part of my being being English. That's why I am so good at it. It's part of my being being Christian is. That's why I am so good at it. It's part of my being being a sinner. That's why I am so good at it. It gets complicated, let Him sort it out I can't. I depend on Him absolutley. Praise Him.

That's what I said.

That's what I said. But I thought I'd made the point that regardless of all that, all the trumas that could overtake us, my children would still be my children. That is the point. Nothing changes the status of Christians because they are part of God family. God's children. God's children do not end up in Hell.

Fortunate. Fortune is a game of chance. I will use the words of Job to answer you, "JOB 2:10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
Whatever happens to us is God's provision for us and should be accepted with praise and thanks giving by us.
Thanks for your prayers, they never go amiss. I have seen it first hand many times.

I have become very busy. Can we try to focus a bit more and deal with things one at a time?
God is love among other things but God is One. His love cannot be divided and raised above all else. We agree I think. Common ground we can work from.

God is Sovereign.

johnp.

 

If you do not receive the trouble, then your are indeed fortunate!

Unfortunately the word is associated with games of chance, but not always so!

 

Wes.

The missing bit.

Yes sir, that was a direct divine intervention while grace prevailed. Jesus transformed a religious zealot into a Christian there on the Damascus Road. Or in other words irresistable grace was used on the man.

"While grace prevailed?"

Only just. Gives a bad impression though.

johnp.

 

First installment ILUVLIGHT. I've managed all the Hebrews passages.

Heb 6:4-6; 4:11; 10:26-29; 12:15-17.

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Easy peasy. The writer is explaining that we, as men, are on to a loser if we know a person that says he has lost his faith. He has heard the message already and has rejected that. It is impossible to bring him back because he knows the message. The message you will try to give him is the one he has rejected. You waste your breath.
MT 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

It is not impossible to God is it?

...if they fall away... This cannot be a Christian because they are kept from falling, "JUDE 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy."[/b]

repentance It is faith not repentance that saves.


Heb 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Some of my favourite passages. The place where God says, "Kick off your shoes and have a seat friend."
These passages are a Calvinists dream. Why they are included here is a mystery! The people above, those who have tasted that the Lord is good, these are some of them.
The Israelites had a cloud shielding them by day and a pillar of fire at night. Moses struck a rock and water flowed out and when Manna got a bit boring that had quail. And so on. That describes those in Hebrews six and what did they not do? They refused to enter, they fell away from, the type, Israel the land flowing with milk and honey, God's rest. We must make sure we have entered His rest. I have. I rest from my labour. They refused to cross the Jordan river, which was a type for salvation. They all died in the desert.
HEB 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest...

Heb 4:9-11 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

We can enter His rest now. Failure to enter His rest is disobedience and will result in death in the wilderness. Once entered there is nothing to do, it would not be right to work on the Sabbath would it? We are in the Sabbath. Stop working. Christians who keep or observe Sunday are out of step and are short on faith. Not those that dedicate a day for the Lord but those that apply it as a law. The Jews are out of step in keeping the type of Sabbath. The reality is there and that is true rest. Once we are in God's Sabbath we keep the Sabbath law.

(How am I doing?)

Heb 10:26-29 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

...after we have received the knowledge of the truth... (You sure you believe God loves you? How can you think He speaks to His children in this way?)
No one has said that people cannot get a glimpse of the light when it is being proclaimed. God ensures that those who hear the gospel have some idea what is going on. Only the sacrifice of Jesus will save. Reject that and you burn. You see I bet you took that 'deliberately keep on sinning' to mean that these people being addressed were really naughty. Wine and orgies and all the rest but I don't think the writer would be telling those because they would not have been in church. These are ordinary people living a pleasant life but dead in their sins still. The reason they have been sanctified is because they are around Christians. Where we are is holy and has influence. People can be sanctified and still be lost. "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 1 Cor 7:14."
1 Cor 7:16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? There is some more of this in 1 John somewhere but one I do know off hand is the story of the ten virgins. Five had enough oil, which signifies the Holy Spirit, and the others did not have enough! The Holy Spirit has been insulted by the five without saving grace because they did not have sufficient oil.

Hebrews 12:15-17 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.

See to it that no one misses the grace of God... I will try to look that 1 John passage up. I was reading it sometime ago and I came to the understanding that if there are people in your Church who are like the five virgins, without enough oil, we can save them through prayer. It is a promise. We must make sure for them. I see nothing else to cause a problem there.
Maybe a word about Esau. He made a decision at one point in his life which could not be undone at a later date. We often make decisions with the idea in mind that we can change our minds later. Some decisions fix you at that point. How do we know if we will ever get as close again. He probably thought that he could have his stew and eat it.

That's Hebrews.

jonnp.

 

Hi John P
I read your post twice to make sure I understood what you are saying. The first passage you commented on, seems you've over looked something I just want to bring to your attention.
who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,

One who is not saved cannot share in the holy spirit nor taste of the gift. To me these two phrases are saying that we cannot be saved again once having experienced Salvation already. Salvation is having the Holy Spirit and tasting the Gift we receive after this life. The term saved is really future tense rather than past. we only taste it we hope for it. It is unseen as of yet in our time. It is an object of our hope.

This from your Bible;
"if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

The other problem is you can't fall away from faith you never had. And if you're not saved but just witnessed to for example Grace has not been applied to you yet so as to cause open shame to our Savior the second time around.

Mat 19:26 is a comment made by Christ about rich men. and how rare it is that they are saved at all, but still it is possible with God. All things are possible with God as long as it is with in His character that he would do it, because it is with in Him to do it. There are things He won't do. No matter what.

Jude 1:24
I know he is able to keep you from falling but will he when someone stops believing in Him or no longer believes? I believe we are saved the moment we believe in Christ, but yet we are confirmed by our confession of Christ. If we fall we have no more sacrifice we used it up the first time around.

I agree with that but it is faith that will cause us to repent.

This verse is merely an explanation for the need for our enduring perseverance. Being a Christian isn't all rest. We have many trials and test of our faith everyday. The peace and rest I have is in the knowing that God is there for me. I depend on Him. He is my Rock. It is my desire to be used by Him until there is nothing left to be used.

But we already have rest in the Lord when we first believe.
According to Calvinism. How can someone believe and not be saved?
How Can someone taste of the Gift or have Holy Spirit and not be saved?
By unbelief!.

To say "no one has said" is a very broad statement. Several Calvinist have claimed that man can't hear or understand, unless regenerated first. Then when that's proven to not be so. It becomes inability to understand. Romans 1:20 says differently. All men can understand the gospel message. The term Spiritually dead wasn't meant to be taken literally. Just as Romans 3:10 wasn't meant to be taken literally. It's the irony of it all.
And you're the first Calvinist to ever admit we can and do "reject Christ" and IMHO that is why most are lost.
We do all make decisions we can't turn back the clock this is true but for some of us faith must be come through the gospel several times before it sinks in. It was that way with me. Thank God for His patients.

I apreciate you explanation of your views and you do it with humbleness of Heart. Please continue. Back to the grind stone I go.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

The catch is there is no way to identify a "saint" this side of the grave. For all we know, God (only) "elected" Mormons.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

One who is not saved cannot share in the holy spirit nor taste of the gift.

Who says? Scripture please. I've got the five virgins and a king for company. (Strange company). Matt 25:1-12; Isaiah 10:6 The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. And He was not saved.

...if they fall away...

Does not say they fall away from faith. Fall away from the truth will do.

I'm trying to begin some work I should have finished by tomorrow so I'm a bit pushed.

I know he is able to keep you from falling but will he when someone stops believing in Him or no longer believes?

Course He will. He died for me when I hated Him. The thought that He would discard me now because I forget Him is a non starter. Anyway I only forget Him for short lengths of time. Like when He gets a little old lady driver in front of me. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:8. When He called me an enemy of His He died for me. He calls me son now. What will He not do for me?

It may be to you but I was, past tense, saved when I put my hope in Him.
Saved is past tense, you must find another word.

This verse is merely an explanation for the need for our enduring perseverance. Being a Christian isn't all rest.

No, it is the reason we persevere. We are in His rest means that no work for salvation is necessary. Our works have no merit in this. Our works have no demerits except a clout around the ear when we need one.
What about that bloke in 1 Cor 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
He was well out of line to the point that he was taken to Heaven because of his behaviour! Get out of that!

But we already have rest in the Lord when we first believe.

That's entering His rest. There are only seven days. The unregenerate are in the sixth day while the Christian is in the seventh. Can't travel back in time.

To say "no one has said" is a very broad statement. Several Calvinist have claimed that man can't hear or understand, unless regenerated first.

The truth of God is not accepted but the idea can play a role in the unregenerated. Look at the season and you will see a lot of baby Jesus' about. I said a glimpse, there must be something, God does not leave anyone with excuses. The spiritual mind can see but the unregenerate must have some light. When they hear the call they do not submit but they do understand to a degree. I've been there and I have resisted.

And you're the first Calvinist to ever admit we can and do "reject Christ" and IMHO that is why most are lost.

On yer bike. Some Calvinist! If I had said that then there really is no hope for me.
IMHO that is why most are lost. Most? Do most hear?
Rejecting Christ by the unregenerate is caused by God. Accepting Christ by the regenerate is caused by God. Just in case you mistake my position.

I apreciate you explanation of your views and you do it with humbleness of Heart. Please continue. Back to the grind stone I go.
May God Bless You;
Mike

That is very kind of you brother. Sorry it's rushed, maybe next week will be a better time for me. For someone in God's rest I am rushed off my feet.

johnp.

 

Hi John P;

Are you saying that man can have his heart Changed with out regeneration? I believe man can change his own heart and turn to God because God draws all men to Him. Actually God told the Jews well actually pleaded with them to turn from evil and come to Him
I think you may mistaken about Isa 10:6 it didn't say what you said it did.
this is what it says in my Bible;
Isa 10:6 I will send him against a hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Don't fret about it I'm in no hurry. I also have to do about 10 things at once in my work life. Sometimes I can't reply for up to a week and by then sometimes the entire subject gets lost. Then sometimes I have lots of time I'm on a Salary so my time is my own until I have work to do. Besides I'm blessed with an employer who is a Christian as well and knows what I do with spare time because he does the same.

Well I believe you could say he disowned the Jews for unbelief. I have as yet found anything that says He can't do this to me for rejection. In fact Paul says he can and will for boasting against the Jews. The Bible also suggested that he can remove us as a branch for being fruitless.
Just because a man believes doesn't mean he will continue to .
In order for me to accept the OSAS position it can't be based on an interpretation of Man but come directly from God.
Salvation is a choice by man Yet Salvation comes directly from God. He has placed evil and good right in front of us and told us to choose. How can anyone deny this?

All of our present flesh is destroyed because we are given a new body. Paul said that sin dwelt in his flesh as it does in all of us. But since he was in the spirit ("as we are all supposed to be") it is no longer us that comits the sin but, the sin that dwells in the flesh. Our physcial body will return to dust it will be destroyed. No doubt!, but at the same time this does not mean we will not have a body. We will have a body like that of Christ which is when we will be totally conformed to His image.
I hope that you took notice again of the preceeding this verse of the same passage as 1 Cor5:5

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

This verse tells us that a little sin has an effect on us as a whole. and the next verse tells us that we have to get rid of sin in our flesh on our own
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
God doesn't make us stop sinning just because we believe. There is a lot of truth in what Abe Lincoln said and that was. "God Helps those who helps themselves"
Then Paul tells us to seek absolute truth;
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
We can all take verses here and there but it is difficult to aplly those verses to any other context than there in and still have truth. if we have enough wisdom to be aware and to search out the entire passage we will all come away with clearer understanding.

I'm not quite sure what your talking about the Christian being in the day of rest. Maybe you could explain further

I don't deny that Salvation is of God or for that matter that it is a work of God. On the other hand I do deny the Calvinist interpertation of that work. I reject that Salvation is dictated to man and I believe that God has given man the ability to choose.
Duet 30:19 Ezke 18:32 In Ezke 33:11 God pleades with the wicked to to turn from there ways and live. Christ is still pleading for us to change our mind and come to Him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

I'd really like that May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Hello ILUVLIGHT.

Yes. God changed a donkey herder's heart into the heart of a king. The transformation is marked in King Saul. He went from hiding amongst his animals to facing God off. He lost though.
He shared in the Holy Spirit but not as far as salvation. He fell away.
This is why I don't like the expression, "Totally Depraved." At a human level God works in different ways in people, we are not as bad as we can be. The lost are not totally depraved, in a human sense, the Holy Spirit has an influence over all.

I believe we are sin. The things we do are symptoms of that illness. The symptoms do not need dealing with! The sickness is being seen to by Jesus.
If we ever think we are not sinning, well that is just one more symptom. Don't worry the sickness is being dealt with. Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

That Hebrews passage is a favourite of mine. I love it. Study up on it and next week we can hammer it out. Let us explore God's rest.

It's good to meet you.

johnp.

 

Matt 18 - describes "Forgiveness revoked" - it ends with a most solemn warning about the "real" danger for us.

I believe it.

The perseverence of the saints is documented throughout scripture as absolutely necessary. So also is the warning about forgiveness revoked, falling from Grace and the failure to "RENEW some AGAIN".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Bob;
I'm Glad I'm not the only one that understands these truths.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Topic: P=Perseverance of the Saints

How can one that has been born be unborned?
How can something that has been circumcised become uncircumcised?

Once you are a member of the family, you are a member forever.
There is no process to un-adopt a child.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved, can be resisted, but He cannot be overcomed. A Christian is sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

 

Matt 18 is a problem for Calvinists and Arminians. You Arminians should not crow too loudly over it for it is alone. I think there is maybe one other difficult passage but that is all you have.

I'd like to point out that the King in question here calls His servants to settle accounts. If that is a discription of Arminians then I suggest you have your status changed quickly because no servant is a permanent member of a household but I am a son of God and I will live in the house of the Lord forever.

Verse 26 ...canceled the debt and let him go. It's odd. Why let him go? The curtain has been removed and we stand in the presence of God at all times. I think there must be a good answer knocking about somewhere.

Perseverance is guaranteed by the Lord.

So the cancelling of that debt did not regenerate or circumcise. He was still a servant after the debt was canceled.

johnp.

ILUVLIGHT (Heb 6:4-6; 4:11; 10:26-29; 12:15-17.) Where is this thread. I can't find it to finish off the list you gave me.

 

You will never understand the purpose of our Great High Priest's intercession [Hebrews 7:25 and I John 2:1] until you bow to Scipture and believe in eternal security. It took me five years of concentrated study at Bible College until I had 'hammered out the truth' for my understanding. Perseverence, while we should serve the Lord to the best of our abilities, still becomes 'good works' if we are requiring these 'works' from ourselves and other communicants at our churches. Salvation does not come by faith plus 'works.' [Ephesians 2:9]

If we are depending on our 'works, faithfulness, and performance' then we are leaning on the cane of our merit before His throne. God speaking through the Apostle Paul still thinks that our justification is only through the instrumentality of our faith. [Romans 5:1]

There is never a good reason for changing the Word of God.

 

Hi Michael Hobbs;

They're not unborned but just as we in order to persevere have to die daily to sin, We can turn around and die to Salvation.
The Jews never believed that once your family your always family. In fact I believe we learned how to disown a child from the Jews.

I don't try to claim I have all the answers. I don't believe anyone really does, but Christ Him self. How ever there are more scriptures that suggest we can loose our Salvation if we do not act to persevere it. Than there is scriptures that say we can't loose it. It's a matter of testimony and witness from the Bible. There is no amount of sin that will ultimately cause you to loose except unbelief. Unbelief is falling from grace. People do loose faith., You can claim they weren't saved in the first place, but I can't do that. I cannot judge another's heart, because I can't see it. Neither can you, so how would you explain someone turning from Christ to live in sin?. Do you judge them as never saved? If so Then think about being a fair judge and the consequences of judging unfairly. If you can't see a mans heart how you going to know they were never saved. If you don't know you cannot be a fair judge.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

The parable in Matthew 18 is on the principle of forgiving and loving our neighbors, not salvation.